Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

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jriccitelli
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by jriccitelli » Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:54 pm

I didn't say anyone is stopping evangelism, but i was wondering how Robby associated 'The Great Commission' with his statement (sept 8th), and from where was Robbys mention of the 'end' taken from? (i suspect the end Robby had in mind is from Matt 28:20)

dwilkins
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by dwilkins » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:24 pm

jriccitelli wrote:I didn't say anyone is stopping evangelism, but i was wondering how Robby associated 'The Great Commission' with his statement (sept 8th), and from where was Robbys mention of the 'end' taken from? (i suspect the end Robby had in mind is from Matt 28:20)
I have heard other accuse Full Preterists of being anti-evangelistic due to the fulfillment of the Great Commission, so I thought that your comment was along those lines. As far as the passages you cited goes, everything we have written in scripture was completed before the Second Coming, so there isn't an example of something authoritative that looks back on the topic of the Great Commission. Therefore, I'd agree with this sentence, "There is nothing in these other two passages that suggest the commission is over, they suggest it is being done", but I'd say that the ongoing nature in regards to the Great Commission was limited to the first century.

As far as Psa. 19 goes,

Psa 19:1 To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
Psa 19:2 Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge.
Psa 19:3 There is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard.
Psa 19:4 Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun,
Psa 19:5 which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy.
Psa 19:6 Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them, and there is nothing hidden from its heat.

this passage existed before the Great Commission, and it has validity after as well (though I'm not convinced that it is making the same point as Romans 1).

Doug

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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by robbyyoung » Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:37 pm

jriccitelli wrote:Robby, I see that the message was first to the Jews, and then to the uttermost parts of the World, which the disciples took literally. They were told to go unto all nations (ethros) and to all the world (Kosmos), and that is where they were headed, there is no indication this was complete by 70ad.

You are combining Rom 10:18 with Rom.16:26 and Col.1:5-6, but Rom.10 is repeating Psalm 19:4 which speaks of the general conviction of Gods Creation, just like Romans 1:20/ Psalms 19:1. Creations conviction is complete, but Rom.16:26 and Col.1:5-6 speak of an ongoing thing. There is nothing in these other two passages that suggest the commission is over, they suggest it is being done. Besides Paul expected to still go to Spain .

Do you not believe in a Judgment upon all the nations, Gentiles and world?
Do the Gentiles escape a Judgment after death?
Hi jr,

Thanks Doug, for bringing some clarity to the table ahead of my response. JR, I've tried to be careful in my verbiage so as to not be misinterpreted, as FP and other touchy beliefs foster outside the "status quo", causing more confusion and lack of common ground. "The Great Commission" of the 1st Century clearly had a TIME SENSITIVE purpose relevant to that audience.

Mark 16:15-16 conflates with Matt 28:19-20, which conflates with Matt 24:14 all of which is specific and personal to The Disciples/Apostles as one of the "Signs" to look for as "The End of the Age" approached. Hence my other references regarding The Apostle's testimony that "This Sign" was upon them for "The End of the Age" to take place.

Post 70AD, I believe, The Great Commission, which is the preaching of the gospel, excludes an "The End of the Age" mindset. But rather, the arrival of the "Age to Come".

No, I don't believe in the future Judgement you are referring to from the NT. Because I believe this was accomplished already as a local event during Israel's "Last Days".

No, nobody escapes their judgment upon death. Just because "A" judgment took place almost 2000 years ago, and closed sheol or the hadean realm forever, doesn't mean we stop standing before God to be judged.

In closing; I find it perplexing if we cannot even find common ground concerning the immanency of the 1st Century's "Great Commission" which clearly had a prophetic end to that audience. If others want to believe there's some kind of dual or repeated pattern to this in the future, well that's fine, our common ground will end there. But to disregard the 1st application is an exercise of just finding ways to be disagreeable, IMHO.

Also, your belief doesn't affect the way you live and make decisions? No, engaging FP as we move toward tomorrow is just as worthy as the futurist paradigm. Again, an exercise in finding ways to be disagreeable!

God Bless

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Michelle
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by Michelle » Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:05 pm

dwilkins wrote:"
I agree with you (which I realize makes me flat wrong in Doug's eyes.) Trying to imagine how history might have been different *if only...* is a fool's errand. It is also silly to lay complete blame (or credit) for complex events at the feet of those avowing a certain theological construct. [Trying to imagine how history might be different is an interesting thought exercise in my opinion. Beliefs have consequences. You seem to be implying that things would have worked out in history exactly as they have regardless of what people believe (or maybe that Christianity has been so irrelevant that it couldn't have affected history). If you don't have any interest in thinking through the possibilities of what might have happened then I suppose you would find the whole conversation pointless. If that's true, why would you keep coming back to it?

Doug
Your last sentence is a good question which I have no good answer for except that sometimes I find myself poking at wasp nests to see what will happen.

Incidentally, this quote, which I wrote, does not address The Editor's question. Just saying.

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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by TheEditor » Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:27 pm

Doug,

I'll have to agree with Michelle on this. For one, they weren't all my comments, and second, there is no way I can speak for everybody else in this matter. Third, it's hard to tell exactly where you are quoting someone; responding yourself; or responding yourself now (present tense) to a previous comment that you are quoting. Could we put the shotgun down in favor of a rifle with a scope? :) Focus like a laser on the one thing I said that is an example of me saying that eschatological paradigms do not effect the way a person approaches life? Maybe if we keep it to this alone, we can make some progress in our dialogue. :)

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by dwilkins » Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:03 am

TheEditor wrote:Doug,

I'll have to agree with Michelle on this. For one, they weren't all my comments, and second, there is no way I can speak for everybody else in this matter. Third, it's hard to tell exactly where you are quoting someone; responding yourself; or responding yourself now (present tense) to a previous comment that you are quoting. Could we put the shotgun down in favor of a rifle with a scope? :) Focus like a laser on the one thing I said that is an example of me saying that eschatological paradigms do not effect the way a person approaches life? Maybe if we keep it to this alone, we can make some progress in our dialogue. :)

Regards, Brenden.
I'm shocked. You agree with Michelle on this one.

You challenged me, "Could you please point out to me where exactly I or anyone else in this thread stated that it was not true that "a person's worldview will influence what they do in life"???" I think I did so in a simple format. You don't like my answer. Oh well. I didn't post back to this thread to debate something that I think was pretty obvious in the conversation. My point was to provide a link where DeMar makes an extended argument that peoples' eschatology affects their politics and worldview, which is the point of the OP.

If we can't agree that the philosophical or religious outlook of the population of country will affect how that country develops or the policies it implements (a pretty obvious conclusion in my mind) then there's nothing to debate. Take a look at DeMar and Gentry. I think their videos associated with the link are interesting.

Doug

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TheEditor
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by TheEditor » Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:36 am

Hi Doug,

These are among the selections of my comments that you chose as exhibits A, B, C and D:

"Christianity is the acceptance of Jesus as the Son of God and an adherence to his example and teachings: a way of life in imitation of him. That’s all it is. That’s all it ever was."

"By teaching and example, Jesus wielded positive influence with individuals, but he didn’t attempt to raise a group to consciousness, nor did he become an activist for social change."

"The views regarding the manner of the Lord's return (or lack thereof) should and will be ancillary to a person's walk with God. If they are the focal point of one's walk, then I doubt whether there really is a walk at all."

"Whatever the case, this is an argument in favor of how some individual Christians may try to influence policies, or activities (much like tree-huggers may influence policies, and I mean no disrespect to them, I can be one myself). But the idea that nation upon nation throughout history has been influenced by Dispensationalism is a bit of a stretch.


You disagreed with these statements, and you believe that by so disagreeing, my negative reaction was because:

You don't like my answer


No, it's not that I don't like your answer, it's that I believe your answer is wrong-headed. How anyone could find these statements of mine to be untrue, I can't understand. I will restate for the third time; I do believe (as I have said several times before) that an individual's beliefs can and do effect the way they live their lives and the choices they make. What I do not believe, is that adopting any kind of eschatological system acts as a divining rod for the US or any other country in how they proceed with their agendas.

Christianity as such may have permeated mankind (Luke 13:21) to the extent that we have laws and rules and codes of conduct predicated upon it and fail to recognize that, since it has become hardwired into our social DNA. But Darbyism as a driving forvce in world politics? Bit of a stretch. Methinks Preterists are too enamored of their system to see it's limitations. Reminds me of my former place of fellowship; "Brothers, wouldn't the world be so much better off if all were Jehovah's people"?

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by mattrose » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:09 am

I haven't taken the time to read this whole debate (so I probably shouldn't post my opinion)...

But if the debate, now, is whether or not one's eschatological views impact practical living on an individual and societal level... then the answer is surely YES. Of course, they don't necessarily make as big an impact as some people think, but they definitely DO make an impact.

On an individual level...
~ There are people who don't have children b/c they think 'what's the point, Jesus is coming in the next few years'
~ There are people who sell their stuff specifically b/c they think the return of Christ is guaranteed in the next few years
~ There are people who donate to causes like a fund to rebuild the Jewish temple

On a societal level...
~ There are people who throw garbage out the window b/c the world is gonna be burnt up anyway
~ There are people who supported the re-establishment of Israel b/c they believed it was prophetically necessary
~ There are people who are against peace talks b/c they believe peace is impossible till 2nd coming

Tim Weber makes an excellent case of how dispensationalism has affected things at the world level in his book "On the road to armageddon." I think anyone who argues in an absolute sense that beliefs (of any kind) don't result in actions is quite naive. More likely they are only downplaying HOW MUCH eschatological beliefs affect actions. But let's not make the mistake of swinging the pendulum too far the other direction. Particular views about end-times are not the most important thing in our lives, nor are they meaningless.

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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by jriccitelli » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:27 am

The OP itself, I wasn’t addressing previously, as it seemed addressed enough. But, if it is any conciliation I agree that ‘a world view or religious view greatly influences our life and choices’ if not completely. Socialism, communism, Democracy, Sharia Law, living as a Hindu or a Buddhist or a Catholic or a Darwinist or a Christian is going to greatly change the world we live in . In fact that is why I think ‘only’ truth and Gods Word can effect change for good in our world, as for FP I dont know, that is a fair question.
O' If only everyone was a YWEH believer (we could ‘all’ be sinners, saved through faith).

I am with you Robby, I agree a change from Tradition is going to bring wrath, as a Conditionalist and a Iconoclast I am with you on this point, we must embrace the wrath (of man), and stand our up for our belief. If our belief and arguments can fit uniformly on the foundation and in the building like an uncut stone fit within the wall, without causing the building to tumble or slip off the foundation, then we can be assured of its place.

I had never met any full Preterists or debated it, I was only questioning the one passage, and because I had never heard the FP defense of the great Commission.

I wrote somewhere here that i am a preterist and yet at the same time I am not. Because Gods judgments, actions, and specific events describe His Character, will, plan, and method. Scripture describes what God does, why God does something, for whom, and scripture informs us God 'will' do something. In other words: God will do and accomplish everything according to what He has done already,and what He has already said. This is the wisdom that comes from 'knowing Him' and His Word. In other words: I believe God does not change, He is the same God HE has always been. He has described His way, and our future, 'through what He has already brought to past'.

Elijah like John the Baptist, like baptism, like death. The tabernacle, like the body, like the Temples, like Christ. Like the Incarnation, like a Christophany, these are only partial fulfillments of what will finally all be completely fully fulfilled eventually. They are not yet.

'I know that everything God does will remain forever; there is nothing to add to it and there is nothing to take from it, for God has so worked that men should fear Him. 15 That which is has been already and that which will be has already been, for God seeks what has passed by' (Eccl.3:14-15)

"Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand,25 to break Assyria in My land, and I will trample him on My mountains. Then his yoke will be removed from them and his burden removed from their shoulder.26 This is the plan devised against the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out against all the nations.27 For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?" (Isaiah 14)

And Doug, please let us reason together; You quoted Isaiah 66 as having come to past, is that right?

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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by dwilkins » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:45 am

jriccitelli wrote: And Doug, please let us reason together; You quoted Isaiah 66 as having come to past, is that right?
I think so. Isaiah 40-66 describes the new creation as the new people of God, AKA new Jerusalem, that will come to pass when the apostate members of the Old Covenant nation are judged and the faithful remnant receive their reward. I think this indicates that Isaiah 66 was fulfilled when that happened in association with the Roman war.

But, if I'm wrong and it's still for the future, that doesn't change the point I was trying to make by citing the passage. Let's say Isaiah 66 is fulfilled in the future. That still means that the condition the New Heaven and New Earth is that 1) there are still sinners 2) who need to be evangelized 3) and God sends evangelists to parts of the world that 4) have never heard of God. I assert that this makes traditional modes of eschatology completely impossible. According to standard futurist eschatology, this passage is supposed to reflect the conditions after the universe has been completely melted to the atomic level and then rebuilt without any sin whatsoever. If that were true, do you think it's possible that people would still be in sin, and so needing of salvation, and still be ignorant of who God is? That doesn't make sense to me.

Doug

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