Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

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steve
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by steve » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:37 pm

Lighten-up Steve
Responding at all to this would be superfluous.

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Michelle
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by Michelle » Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:23 am

robbyyoung wrote: Hi Michelle,

You said, "They must, after all, since God is finished with us." Where did you get this idea? Who told you God is finished with us? This IS NOT what FP is.
Hi robbyyoung,

I've felt ashamed of myself because I sarcasmed at you without true understanding. Could you explain what FP is for me? If you are willing to do this (and I would be so grateful) would you be so kind as to skip over the timing statements, audience relevance, and the proclamations that Jesus is not a liar? I get this part. I really, really understand it. What I don't understand (most especially your version of full preterism, robbyyoung, since I am pretty sure you believe that the church was raptured in 70 AD) is what Christ is doing now and what we, His people, are supposed to be doing. So, would you pick up the thread in, say, 71 AD, and finish the story?

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robbyyoung
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by robbyyoung » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:08 pm

Michelle wrote:
robbyyoung wrote: Hi Michelle,

You said, "They must, after all, since God is finished with us." Where did you get this idea? Who told you God is finished with us? This IS NOT what FP is.
Hi robbyyoung,

I've felt ashamed of myself because I sarcasmed at you without true understanding. Could you explain what FP is for me? If you are willing to do this (and I would be so grateful) would you be so kind as to skip over the timing statements, audience relevance, and the proclamations that Jesus is not a liar? I get this part. I really, really understand it. What I don't understand (most especially your version of full preterism, robbyyoung, since I am pretty sure you believe that the church was raptured in 70 AD) is what Christ is doing now and what we, His people, are supposed to be doing. So, would you pick up the thread in, say, 71 AD, and finish the story?
Hi Michelle,

Oh my, no worries dear Sister. Our banter, at times, is worthy of good fun. I take all comments from the Brethren without malice and with concern for a better relationship with The Father and Lord Yeshua, as we exhibit our love for another.

As to your question concerning, “What is Full Preterism?” My Brand of Full Preterism is a term that denotes the consummation of all New Testament eschatological statements uttered by Yeshua and The Apostles, which are emphatically placed in their contemporary’s lifetime (Approximately 40 years).

As to your question, “What now?” Post 70AD, Christ’s Kingdom grows exponentially by His own doing. Post 70AD, we are the ones “outside the gates of the City”, and those of us who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life will enter (Rev 21:27). Of course this has an earthly realization as we continue to live the Kingdom life and then upon our death, we go to the unseen realm as we take our eternal, immortal, and heavenly position with Christ our Lord.

In other words, we live our lives as instructed by Yeshua. We eventually die and then go to be with The Lord forever. Christ’s Kingdom has no end, and yet, we know there are going to be numerous ages within this everlasting Kingdom that affect those in heaven, as well as those on earth (Eph 2:7 & 3:21).

Here’s an interesting question, what denotes an age? Furthermore, it’s been almost 2000 years since 70AD, have we gone through any other said age(s) since then?

These are questions that are pretty much left unanswered as far as I know. But it is an exciting point to ponder.

God Bless.
Last edited by robbyyoung on Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

dizerner

Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by dizerner » Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:52 pm

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Last edited by dizerner on Sun Feb 19, 2023 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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robbyyoung
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by robbyyoung » Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:21 am

dizerner wrote:
This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
I believe this describes the current age and the only power that can effect a change in the human heart.
Hi dizerner,

"The End" that is coming refers to the Old Covenant Age. The Gospel was preached during this time to usher in "The Age to Come", The New Covenant. "The Great Commission" was specific to the "Old Covenant Age" that was going to be destroyed. Therefore, The 1st Century Church had an enormous task in front of them and thanks be to God, they accomplished it, hence, ushering in The Age to Come, post 70AD.

Please read their testimony:

(Col. 1:23) "The gospel …was proclaimed in all creation under heaven."

(Rom 10:13-18) "But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; “THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.”

(Rom 16:26) but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

(Col 1:5-6) because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth;

-------------

Here's the tricky part. Rev 14:6-7 speaks of this time period noted above, but the word "eternal", in vs.6, should be "age-during"! In other words, Matt 24:14 had an expiration date of The Gospel to "the age". So what about "Future Ages?" I see no reference to any "Great Commission" beyond the end of the Old Covenant Age. For it had a purpose to deal with the destruction of that age. What I do notice is God being tabernacled with man, and the gates of the City being open to all. I see us living The Kingdom life as a witness to the world, not to prepare the world for judgement, but rather being reconciled back to God.

Could this mindset possibly change things? People are noticing FP everyday, not because its some new idea, but rather, the plain implications been there all along.

God Bless.

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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by dwilkins » Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:56 am

Below is the first of six links to a seminar in which Gary DeMar and Kenneth Gentry (both Partial Preterists) talk about the implications of someone's eschatology. The basic point is that what you think will affect what you do, and that what we've thought in the last 150 years as a result of Dispensational Premillennialism have affected the world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag1MZYr1aRc

Doug

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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by jriccitelli » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:07 am

Robby, I see that the message was first to the Jews, and then to the uttermost parts of the World, which the disciples took literally. They were told to go unto all nations (ethros) and to all the world (Kosmos), and that is where they were headed, there is no indication this was complete by 70ad.

You are combining Rom 10:18 with Rom.16:26 and Col.1:5-6, but Rom.10 is repeating Psalm 19:4 which speaks of the general conviction of Gods Creation, just like Romans 1:20/ Psalms 19:1. Creations conviction is complete, but Rom.16:26 and Col.1:5-6 speak of an ongoing thing. There is nothing in these other two passages that suggest the commission is over, they suggest it is being done. Besides Paul expected to still go to Spain .

Do you not believe in a Judgment upon all the nations, Gentiles and world?
Do the Gentiles escape a Judgment after death?

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TheEditor
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by TheEditor » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:24 am

Since this thread continues, it would be nice if I could receive a response from the two chief protagonists, specifically to Doug on this page:

http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... 9&start=30

and Robby on this page:

http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... 9&start=40

I will assume they missd them, but since I specifically addressed Doug's false charge against me, it would be nice if I could get a response before I invest time in yet more youtube eschatological musings. :D

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

dwilkins
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by dwilkins » Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:10 pm

"Could you please point out to me where exactly I or anyone else in this thread stated that it was not true that "a person's worldview will influence what they do in life"???"

[Here are some examples of comments that I think make my point. I don't think I misrepresnted you in any way.]

"Whatever the case, this is an argument in favor of how some individual Christians may try to influence policies, or activities (much like tree-huggers may influence policies, and I mean no disrespect to them, I can be one myself). But the idea that nation upon nation throughout history has been influenced by Dispensationalism is a bit of a stretch. We could equally blame (and far more so) Amillenialism for emboldening the Catholic Church." [If the people involved in the decision making refer to their religious convictions as part of (or a major factor in) the motivation for them to do certain things then I think that it's obvious that such a person's eschatology has affected policy. In addition, when the majority of an interest group aggitates for something based on eschatology, then it's obvious that such a group's eschatology has affected policy. I would apply exactly the same dynamic to the Amillennialism of the RCC, especially as it is applied through them as a church/state hybrid, resulting in violence. It's really rather simple. What people think affects what they do, and when influential people or large numbers of people thinkn something it affects national policy and history.]

"The views regarding the manner of the Lord's return (or lack thereof) should and will be ancillary to a person's walk with God. If they are the focal point of one's walk, then I doubt whether there really is a walk at all." [If that is true then why would the New Testament writers tell them to base their motivation on an impending return? Your paradigm might make sense in our time from my point of view, but it simply wasn't what was pitched to them. Paul told the Thessalonians to hang on in the face of persecution because the people persecuting them were going to be judged in the Second Coming. He is trying to motivate them through expectation. Since you don't have the same one, I think you've read over passages that are based on it and never noticed them.]

"It seems to me that, between the 70AD return and the futurist return, the vast majority of Christians will have lived their lives without experiencing any return at all. They simply live, die, and go to meet the Lord. That all men are "once to die, and then the judgment" should be motivation for all of us, shouldn't it? We should all live as Christians regardless." [It might be true that most people have lived without experiencing a return, and that their lives should be oriented towards dying and a judgment. But, the NT, specifically 1st Cor. 7, has all sort of advice based on the fact that the end was near. They simply lived under different expectations (or took them more seriously)].

"Christianity is the acceptance of Jesus as the Son of God and an adherence to his example and teachings: a way of life in imitation of him. That’s all it is. That’s all it ever was." [I suggest that 1st Cor. 7's advice on how to live and make decisions is based on the fact that the current world was passing away, which is eschatology]

"By teaching and example, Jesus wielded positive influence with individuals, but he didn’t attempt to raise a group to consciousness, nor did he become an activist for social change." [I think you'd have a hard time squaring this with Daniel 7:25ff, Rev. 22:1-5, and other passages related to a promise of a kingdom of God]

"Hitler was a rabid racist and fervently believed in it. He didn't hate the Jews as well as dozens of other groups for any reasons that had anything connected with the bible other then perhaps Satan indwelled him. The inquisition had nothing to do with eschatology , it had to do with the fact that Spain at that time in history decided it wanted to be a purely Roman Catholic country. Jews establishing Israel in the late 1800s up through 1948 IMHO was based on several factors like nationalism and safety much more then a perceived biblical reason." [The historically significant violence done by the RCC church was based directly on the fact that they thought that it was time to advance the kingdom of God, which is tied directly to eschatology. Their mistake was using the church/state hybrid, and therefore violence, to do so. But, their decision was deeply eschatologically oriented.]

I agree with you (which I realize makes me flat wrong in Doug's eyes.) Trying to imagine how history might have been different *if only...* is a fool's errand. It is also silly to lay complete blame (or credit) for complex events at the feet of those avowing a certain theological construct. [Trying to imagine how history might be different is an interesting thought exercise in my opinion. Beliefs have consequences. You seem to be implying that things would have worked out in history exactly as they have regardless of what people believe (or maybe that Christianity has been so irrelevant that it couldn't have affected history). If you don't have any interest in thinking through the possibilities of what might have happened then I suppose you would find the whole conversation pointless. If that's true, why would you keep coming back to it?

Doug

dwilkins
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by dwilkins » Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:13 pm

jriccitelli wrote:Robby, I see that the message was first to the Jews, and then to the uttermost parts of the World, which the disciples took literally. They were told to go unto all nations (ethros) and to all the world (Kosmos), and that is where they were headed, there is no indication this was complete by 70ad.

You are combining Rom 10:18 with Rom.16:26 and Col.1:5-6, but Rom.10 is repeating Psalm 19:4 which speaks of the general conviction of Gods Creation, just like Romans 1:20/ Psalms 19:1. Creations conviction is complete, but Rom.16:26 and Col.1:5-6 speak of an ongoing thing. There is nothing in these other two passages that suggest the commission is over, they suggest it is being done. Besides Paul expected to still go to Spain .

Do you not believe in a Judgment upon all the nations, Gentiles and world?
Do the Gentiles escape a Judgment after death?
I don't think Robby or anyone else is saying that we're supposed to stop evangelizing people because "the end" that was on the horizon happened. In fact, the close of Isaiah 66 describes the conditions of the New Heaven and New Earth, where evangelists go out to all of the world (most of which hadn't ever heard of God at that point). I suggest you think about the implications of that:

Isa 66:15 "For behold, the LORD will come in fire, and his chariots like the whirlwind, to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Isa 66:16 For by fire will the LORD enter into judgment, and by his sword, with all flesh; and those slain by the LORD shall be many.
Isa 66:17 "Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig's flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the LORD.
Isa 66:18 "For I know their works and their thoughts, and the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and shall see my glory,
Isa 66:19 and I will set a sign among them. And from them I will send survivors to the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, who draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands far away, that have not heard my fame or seen my glory. And they shall declare my glory among the nations.
Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brothers from all the nations as an offering to the LORD, on horses and in chariots and in litters and on mules and on dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the LORD, just as the Israelites bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD.
Isa 66:21 And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the LORD.
Isa 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.
Isa 66:24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

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