Re: Why is the inspiration of scripture over?
Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:29 am
robbyyoung wrote:Hi Dwight,
Thanks for joining the discussion. The truth is the truth, to include its interpretation. We know for a fact (biblically) that the church is equipped with the Holy Spirit of God, therefore, if teachers, preachers, prophets, etc… (1 Cor 12:28) are led by the Spirit of God to expound on what "thus says the Lord", isn’t it in fact ancillary, at the very least, to the foundational tenets of scripture?
Dwight: I've heard many teachers, preachers, and probably even some prophets, whose teaching is obviously wrong, when you compare it to the Bible. Even though they thought they were speaking by and led by the Spirit of God, they were not. Obviously, some of them were false teachers, false preachers, and false prophets, but some were true brothers in the Lord, but simply misled or deceived in their teaching. Can't you see that?
Unless you are contending that the spiritual gifts of various utterances are mute, how can you defend this position by the Word of God?
Dwight: I really don't know what you mean by "the spiritual gifts of various utterances are mute".
Dwight, my inquiry is not based on the history of defiling Christ’s foundational tenets, but by expounding on them. But to expound on the truth, you must be in the truth, to elaborate on what “thus says the Lord”; but, isn't spiritual gifts the modem to do just that?
Dwight: Yes, I believe it is, but none of us perfectly or flawlessly follows the leading of the Spirit.
Nevertheless, your concerns are valid, because anything that contradicts foundational doctrines should be dismissed as a lie. But, the 1st Century believers were no stranger to this deception, and neither are post Apostolic believers. If the Holy Spirit sustains us, the gifts of The Spirit will always provide further clarification, hence, teachers, preachers, and prophets.
Dwight: The 1st century believers, as I understand it, debated much about what books should be considered inspired and which ones should not. Their were many books that probably were very edifying to the church, but were still rejected from the canon. The true believers among them (we know their were false brethren among them too, as there always is) were very concerned and careful about labeling any book inspired. For example, everything Paul said was not inspired but could be authoritative, we read in 1 Cor 7:12 that Paul gives his own judgement on marriage issues. However, do we read his judgement as inspired?
Dwight: Actually I believe even his opinions were inspired. Remember he said something to the effect of "and I think that I also have the Spirit of God," right after he gave his opinion. 1 Corinthians 7:40
No, we don’t, but could they be authoritative, absolutely. Then why can’t inspiration and authoritative processes of this sort be ongoing to this very day, especially in the multitude of writings?
Dwight: There is authority and being led of the Spirit today, but nothing that equals the authority and inspiration of the original apostles, much less Jesus Himself. They were hand-picked by Jesus Himself, chosen to be with Him for 3 1/2 years, and in Paul's case, personally given great revelations by Jesus Himself. 2 Corinthians 12:7 and Galatians 1:12 No believer today lived with Jesus 3 1/2 years and I don't know any who have received great and many revelations, as Paul did. Those apostles are in a category of their own.
Dwight, you keep eluding to “the bible” as if it existed as we know it today. The Apostles only knew of one form of scripture, The Law and the Prophets and Jesus’ interpretation of the latter.
Dwight: I know that.
Their teachings and instructions were inspired, by God, to equip the church to sustain themselves in Israel’s last days and beyond--through teachers, preachers, and apostles.
Dwight: I believe the apostles teachings were inspired. There is no indication that those who were New Testament teachers and preachers or even prophets had equal authority or inspiration that the apostles had. In fact, not even all of the original apostles were chosen by God to leave inspired writings in the Bible.
Are you saying this is over?
Dwight: Yes, I think so. There was no equivalent inspiration or authority given after the original apostles. And I do believe that there are apostles today, but not with that same authority.
If not, then inspiration which clarifies the truth must still be active and on par with the same sound judgement Paul and others exercised.
Dwight: Clarification of the truth still today? Of course. On par with the same sound judgment of Paul? No, I don't believe so. Steve often mentions Luke 24:45 where Jesus "opened their minds to understand the scriptures." They had special wisdom and revelation that apparently most do not have.
You mentioned Deut 4 & 12, but by your own mandate, Paul was guilty of adding his “two-cents” to the Word of God in 1 Cor 7:12!
Dwight: Even Peter called Paul's letters "scripture", so yes, even Paul's opinions were inspired.
But if you say, no—Paul clearly distinguished his comments from The Lord’s, well I hope you don’t consider his comments “as scripture”.
Dwight: Peter did, so I do too.
But if they’re not scripture, then what are they? Whatever your answer is, all subsequent Christians writings, consistent with Jesus’ teachings, are on par with Paul’s comments!
Dwight: Going by your OPINION, even that statement is INSPIRED BY GOD, but, and this clearly demonstrates what I am saying, I believe you are greatly mistaken.
As for Rev 22, this is a non-sequitur to the biblical reality of Christians building upon Christ’s sure foundation outside this lone prophecy addressed to the seven churches in Asia. Additionally, “this book” is clearly referencing the prophecy therein, not any ongoing teachings and instructions relating to God’s eternal truths.
Dwight: I believe it is very relevant. It clearly tells us God's attitude toward any who dare tamper with the word of God, assuming that they have the authority to add to it or take away from it. Moses says the same thing. Are you willing to risk your eternal salvation, by saying that the warning in Revelation is only for the book of Revelation, especially when the same warning is given by Moses in the Old Testament? Do you thing that it's just a coincidence that the warning in Revelation just happens to be in the last few verses in the whole Bible?
The Word of God says, "For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ" (1 Cor 3:11). Therefore, whatever is said can only further clarify the truth. But if there is only one truth, proclaimed through, preacher, teachers, etc... why wouldn't their words be on par in authority or inspiration as Jesus' and the NT Writers?Dwight: Our words will never be equal in authority or inspiration to Jesus' words, nor IMO to any Biblical author.
Dwight: The 12 apostles argued over which of them was the greatest. If you were there, you could tell them, "My words are equal in authority and inspiration as the Lord's Himself".
For we read, "Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward" (1 Cor 3:12-14). Dwight, our words and deeds must be equal in authority and inspiration as Jesus in order to receive a reward.
Dwight: I sincerely believe that is a deception.
Anything less will in fact suffer loss! Thus, teachers are specifically on notice; "Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness" (James 3:1). I think your judgement is not entirely aligned with scripture, especially if The Spirit is still at work today.
Dwight: How could I be wrong, since, going by your OPINION, my words are equal in authority to those of Christ Himself? On the contrary, it is your judgment on this particular subject that does not square with scripture. In this OPINION that you are expressing, you yourself display that you are not speaking with the same authority as Christ.
Our words, especially speaking on God's behalf, matter greatly.
Dwight: I couldn't agree more.
Blessings.