Is Genesis History?

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dwight92070
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Re: Is Genesis History?

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:45 pm

TK wrote:
Where we can get tripped up is if we think God is trying to fool us or deceive us, because He made something a certain way.
If God creates something with an appearance of age (or cataclysms that never actually happened) then it is not that I THINK God is trying to fool us- He IS trying to fool us.

Dwight: As I said before, I guess we have to agree to disagree.

Now you are right- if God chooses to do that he is certainly entitled to do so. The issue is whether in fact he actually DOES this.

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dwight92070
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Re: Is Genesis History?

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:09 pm

TK wrote:Homer/John-

I think there is a distinction between the Cana miracle (I pointed out previously that the created wine had to taste aged or it would not be any good) and the creation of the baked bread because man knows these processes and was familiar with them. And they saw exactly where it came from.

If God created fully grown trees in Eden- that's fine. But would they have 40 or so tree rings inside, which would be indicative of 40 years of growth cycle?

If he created the polar ice fully formed, would he have also created thousands of years worth of yearly weather cycles that are seen in ice core samples?

I think the issue is whether God created brand new things with built in evidence of erosion, or age that would later be discovered.

A good example might be the huge crater monument in AZ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_Crater)

Would it be reasonable for God to create the earth with this crater to make it look like a meteor crater if a meteor had never actually hit it, just because he thought it looked cool?
Dwight: If I may respond here. You ask if this would be reasonable. Going by man's reasonings, probably not, but when God does something supernatural, like creating all things in 6 days, man's reasonings cannot begin to comprehend or understand His actions. Obviously, He expects us to use our brain to comprehend what we can, but there are many things that we will not comprehend until we see Him.

MMathis
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Re: Is Genesis History?

Post by MMathis » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:35 am

Telescopes see new things 24/7 as the light hits the lens. How do you ignore this?

In 1994 Shoemaker Levy 9 crashed into Jupiter as we watched. It is not the same tape running over and over out there.
The events in the lens have to originate somewhere and end up in our viewfinder. Who is trying to make us think we are seeing things that are really not happening?
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dwight92070
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Re: Is Genesis History?

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:39 am

MMathis wrote:Telescopes see new things 24/7 as the light hits the lens. How do you ignore this?

Dwight: Obviously I can't ignore that, but I don't pretend that I understand all of that either. There's a lot of mystery in light and the speed of light that I don't believe scientists have pinned down yet. In fact, I doubt that they will ever. How do you ignore Job 38-41 where God recounts to Job the immense complexity of His creation? Job's response: "Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know... therefore I retract, and I repent in dust and ashes." Sure, scientists have learned a lot since Job, but I doubt that they have even scratched the surface. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
You sound as if you're saying that unless you understand something, you won't believe it. Going by that, none of us could believe God, because He is beyond our comprehension.

Dwight: Here is a "simple" mystery that I cannot comprehend: Why does the sun not burn up? We have nothing on earth to compare it to. I'm sure there are many scientists who will tell you that they fully understand that. I don't believe a single one of them. At this point, it appears to me to be beyond our comprehension. If they can understand it, maybe they could build us a model of it to show us how it works. It will never happen. And that is just one star out of multiplied billions of them! If the earth is young, then the sun has been burning around 6,000 years. Try doing that here on earth or even in space! We cannot duplicate it. If the earth is old, then the sun has been burning billions of years.

In 1994 Shoemaker Levy 9 crashed into Jupiter as we watched. It is not the same tape running over and over out there.
The events in the lens have to originate somewhere and end up in our viewfinder. Who is trying to make us think we are seeing things that are really not happening?
Dwight: I get it. I see your point. I believe that crash was viewed on a telescope. It was a real event. But the Bible says that He made the stars on the 4th day and apparently they were visible immediately to man. The only way that that could happen within a 24 hour day is a supernatural occurence. But even creating a star is supernatural. So is creating a tree or an animal or a bird. All of creation was supernatural. A lady at my church said Sunday: "You try making something out of nothing." We can't. We never will. We err when we try to force the natural laws of science into the creation narrative. The same is true with the story of the flood. Without supernatural intervention, that story could never have happened. But, thank God, He did intervene supernaturally, just as He did at the incarnation, another supernatural event.

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Re: Is Genesis History?

Post by MMathis » Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:17 pm

Who was around on the fourth day to see the stars if man didn't arrive until day six?

To say science doesn't understand light and the speed of it in deep space is really a stretch. I think it is much more likely that we don't understand Genesis.
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dwight92070
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Re: Is Genesis History?

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:19 pm

MMathis wrote:Who was around on the fourth day to see the stars if man didn't arrive until day six?

Dwight: Fortunately, we have a trustworthy eyewitness - God.

To say science doesn't understand light and the speed of it in deep space is really a stretch. I think it is much more likely that we don't understand Genesis.
Dwight: The Bible tells us God is light. Does science understand Him?
1 Timothy 6:16 tells us that Jesus dwells in unapproachable light. Does science understand this?

Dwight: Dr. Jay Wile, a Christian man who teaches Physical Science, Physics, Biology, and Chemistry has written several textbooks on each of these subjects. In his Exploring Creation with Physical Science book (2002) on page 375, 2nd paragraph, he gives a quite detailed description of light, which I won't repeat here. In the last sentence he says: "Although this is a very confusing view of light, it is the best that scientists can do for now."

Dwight: Obviously, science does know many things about light, but to say that they have a complete knowledge of light is also a stretch.

Dwight: But you take me back to my previous point, namely, that we have to acknowledge the supernatural element in the creation account. And which one of us can fully understand the supernatural?

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dwight92070
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Re: Is Genesis History?

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:39 pm

Correction, that point was first brought up by robbyyoung on the first page of this thread. I am simply echoing it. Thanks robby!

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Perry
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Re: Is Genesis History?

Post by Perry » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:55 pm

dwight92070 wrote:...that we have to acknowledge the supernatural element in the creation account. And which one of us can fully understand the supernatural?
In acknowledging the supernatural element of creation, though, we need not rule out that part of that supernatural creation was the the creation of natural processes that behave the way they appear to behave.

The main problem I have with the slant of your position, is that it shuts down any chance for discovering anything. If you're going to argue that God is in the business of making things look like what they aren't, then you can justify any amount of wild speculation.

For example, it does indeed appear that light left from distant galaxies many millions of years ago. Is it possible that God created that light traveling that way all at once? Sure it's possible. He's God. He can do what he pleases. But is it likely? We might just as reasonably argue that the light isn't even there at all, but that, rather, there are miracles taking place in our eyes (and our telescopes, and our cameras, and all of our other photon detecting devices.) Surely God is just as capable of fooling us into thinking we're seeing light that isn't there as He would be at fooling us into thinking that the light is older than it appears. Perhaps we're all just brains in jars, or plugged into a matrix, and nothing is what it appears to be.

Or perhaps, just perhaps, things are the way they appear to be. Maybe, just maybe, God not in the buisiness of slight-of-hand creation that fools us into thinking things aren't what they look like they are because, for some reason, He finds that aesthetically pleasing. Maybe, as we grow more and more adept at scrutinizing the creation, we can learn more and more about the God of that creation and wonder more and more why He chose to create it the way He did.

"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

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Re: Is Genesis History?

Post by robbyyoung » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:08 pm

dwight92070 wrote:Correction, that point was first brought up by robbyyoung on the first page of this thread. I am simply echoing it. Thanks robby!
No worries dwight92070 ;)

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Re: Is Genesis History?

Post by robbyyoung » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:16 pm

Perry wrote:
dwight92070 wrote:...that we have to acknowledge the supernatural element in the creation account. And which one of us can fully understand the supernatural?
In acknowledging the supernatural element of creation, though, we need not rule out that part of that supernatural creation was the the creation of natural processes that behave the way they appear to behave.

The main problem I have with the slant of your position, is that it shuts down any chance for discovering anything. If you're going to argue that God is in the business of making things look like what they aren't, then you can justify any amount of wild speculation.

For example, it does indeed appear that light left from distant galaxies many millions of years ago. Is it possible that God created that light traveling that way all at once? Sure it's possible. He's God. He can do what he pleases. But is it likely? We might just as reasonably argue that the light isn't even there at all, but that, rather, there are miracles taking place in our eyes (and our telescopes, and our cameras, and all of our other photon detecting devices.) Surely God is just as capable of fooling us into thinking we're seeing light that isn't there as He would be at fooling us into thinking that the light is older than it appears. Perhaps we're all just brains in jars, or plugged into a matrix, and nothing is what it appears to be.

Or perhaps, just perhaps, things are the way they appear to be. Maybe, just maybe, God not in the buisiness of slight-of-hand creation that fools us into thinking things aren't what they look like they are because, for some reason, He finds that aesthetically pleasing. Maybe, as we grow more and more adept at scrutinizing the creation, we can learn more and more about the God of that creation and wonder more and more why He chose to create it the way He did.

"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."
Hi Perry,

Thanks for the input. However, have you considered the fallen state of man and how it affected the creation? For instance, in the beginning God said let there be light. Do you know what this light is? Additionally, before the fall, how do we know natural laws were of the same rules verses sin entering into the world? Basically, your argument is based on how we understand a fallen state of creation. Before then, we have no idea what laws were governing the universe. Just something to think about before we start drawing conclusions concerning pranks and trickery ;)

Blessings!

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