Is Genesis History?

User avatar
Perry
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:24 pm

Re: Is Genesis History?

Post by Perry » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:29 pm

robbyyoung wrote: before the fall, how do we know natural laws were of the same rules verses sin entering into the world?
If they were different then, then we have know way of knowing it, and therefore there is no end to what we might speculate about it. Maybe before the fall the universe was powered by dinosaurs running on conveyor belts.

Why bother with all that? Why not just assume that things are what they look like they are?
robbyyoung wrote:Basically, your argument is based on how we understand a fallen state of creation.
My supposition is based on the idea that God is honest.
robbyyoung wrote:Just something to think about before we start drawing conclusions concerning pranks and trickery ;)
Wait, you think I'm the one accusing God of pranks and trickery? I think you missed the point.

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Is Genesis History?

Post by Homer » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:48 pm

Perry wrote:
For example, it does indeed appear that light left from distant galaxies many millions of years ago. Is it possible that God created that light traveling that way all at once? Sure it's possible.
Let's consider that there was a purpose in God's creating the stars; navigation, for example. But if God had a purpose in creating the stars, but He did not somehow cause them to be seen immediately, what purpose would they serve during the millions of year they were invisible?

But then I suppose they atheist would say the stars are purposeless, as is all of what we call creation.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: Is Genesis History?

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:53 pm

[quote="Perry"][quote="dwight92070"]...that we have to acknowledge the supernatural element in the creation account. And which one of us can fully understand the supernatural?[/quote

The main problem I have with the slant of your position, is that it shuts down any chance for discovering anything. If you're going to argue that God is in the business of making things look like what they aren't, then you can justify any amount of wild speculation.

For example, it does indeed appear that light left from distant galaxies many millions of years ago. Is it possible that God created that light traveling that way all at once? Sure it's possible. He's God. He can do what he pleases. But is it likely? We might just as reasonably argue that the light isn't even there at all, but that, rather, there are miracles taking place in our eyes (and our telescopes, and our cameras, and all of our other photon detecting devices.) Surely God is just as capable of fooling us into thinking we're seeing light that isn't there as He would be at fooling us into thinking that the light is older than it appears.

Dwight: Was God fooling the Israelites when He made the waters of the Red Sea part, so they could walk through on dry land? According to your reasoning, He was. Was Jesus fooling His disciples when He made the Sea of Galilee appear to be as hard as rock, because He was walking on it? By your reasoning, He was. Was Jesus fooling His disciples when He instantaneously calmed the wind and the waters of the Sea of Galilee? According to your line of thinking, He was.

Dwight: No, God was not fooling anyone or being dishonest to anyone. Nor was Jesus. He was suspending the natural laws of nature and performing a supernatural act. I don't think God thought to Himself, "I don't want people to think that I'm deceiving them" before He performed his miracles. "They might think that water can stand up like a wall anytime they want it to. Or they might think that they can walk on water whenever they want."

Dwight: When miracles occur, natural reasoning goes out the window. But it appears that many on this thread just can't let go of their natural reasoning, even for a miracle.

"Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom ..."

User avatar
robbyyoung
Posts: 811
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:23 am

Is Genesis History?

Post by robbyyoung » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:14 pm

Hello All,

So I began thinking a bit more about how sin affected creation. For those who would like to offer reasonable answers to the following questions, I sincerely welcome the conversation regarding a young earth perspective.

1. Sin effected a change in God's creation. If this is a fact, wouldn't the rate of decay and other processes be an altogether new reality? For example, did Adam and Eve have a death gene? If they wouldn't have disobeyed, they would have lived forever, right? Or, what about the tree of life and its fruit? Was it supernatural or not?

2. What was the light source on day one? Was it supernatural? Wasn't this light source still relevant and served a purposed--different than the other created light sources? Was this light source affected by the fall of man? Prior to the fall, did this light source enable Adam and Eve in some supernatural way?

These questions are extremely relevant in the discussion of trying to figure-out how things are, because it is not how things were before the fall. The point I'm making is that Adam and Eve lived in a world in which heaven and earth merged in a glorious fashion and was very unique. This arrangement was stripped away after the fall of man, and it seems that we were left with mere remnants of a once perfect environment to live forever. Scientists can only study and have understanding of a fallen world/universe. Maybe, just maybe we are deluding ourselves by not simply trusting God.

Blessings!
Last edited by robbyyoung on Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
TK
Posts: 1477
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:42 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: Is Genesis History?

Post by TK » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:20 am

Dwight-

Your examples of the miracles you noted are entirely apples and oranges to what we are discussing. The Bible discusses and describes these miracles plainly.

Scripture does NOT say that God created the universe brand new but made it look like it was billions of years old. That is entirely speculation and an attempt by YECs to try to explain how the science, which overwhelmingly supports a billions of years old universe, must be mistaken.

And if God did that without telling us, that is indeed deceptive. If he did that I'm with Perry- How can we be sure anything is real? How would you know?

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: Is Genesis History?

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:26 am

[quote="TK"]Dwight-

Your examples of the miracles you noted are entirely apples and oranges to what we are discussing. The Bible discusses and
describes these miracles plainly.

Scripture does NOT say that God created the universe brand new but made it look like it was billions of years old.

Dwight: Nor does it say that the earth was billions of years old. In fact it says the opposite, i.e. that all of creation was 6 days old.

That is entirely speculation and an attempt by YECs to try to explain how the science, which overwhelmingly supports a billions of years old universe, must be mistaken.

Dwight: Just as OECs are speculating about the earth being billions of years old when the Bible overwhelmingly records a young earth. Genesis 1 tells us 6 days. Genesis 5 tells us the number of years that elapsed from the day that God created Adam (on the 6th day) to Noah and his sons. Genesis 11 tells us how many years elapsed from Noah and the flood to Abraham. Matthew 1 gives us the genealogy from Abraham to Jesus. Luke 4 gives us the genealogy from Jesus to Adam, obviously including Abraham and Noah. Adding all those years together, you get around 6000 years from the creation of Adam to 2017.

Dwight? Or is God deceiving us? Is He not telling us that we are not supposed to take those genealogies at face value? So which do we believe, science or the Bible?

And if God did that without telling us, that is indeed deceptive.

Dwight: I think we both know that God is not deceptive. That is not His character. As I have said before, we have to agree to disagree.

User avatar
Perry
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:24 pm

Re: Is Genesis History?

Post by Perry » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:42 am

dwight92070 wrote:According to your reasoning... By your reasoning... According to your line of thinking... But it appears that many on this thread just can't let go of their natural reasoning, even for a miracle.

"Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom ..."
Okay, well, it seems that by your reasoning we need not apply any reasoning at all. We don't see what we think we're seeing... we don't need to think about what we think we're seeing, because, after all, it's not what it looks like anyway, so why bother?

I'm not denying that miracles occur. But by their very nature, miracles are miraculous. They are not subject to experimentation, because they are not repeatable. Indeed the only way we can classify them as miracles is because they behave in ways that are outside of the norm. But how can we even define miraculous if we don't know what normal is? And how can we know what's normal without being able to reliably believe that things consistently behave the way that they appear to behave?
Last edited by Perry on Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Perry
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:24 pm

Re: Is Genesis History?

Post by Perry » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:43 am

Homer wrote:But then I suppose they atheist would say the stars are purposeless, as is all of what we call creation.
I'm not an atheist.

User avatar
Perry
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:24 pm

Re: Is Genesis History?

Post by Perry » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:50 am

dwight92070 wrote:So which do we believe, science or the Bible?
I believe both.
Science, doesn't always get things right, so I view it with an eye of skepticism.

My view of scripture is not always right, so I view my interpretation of scripture with an eye of skepticism.

When science and the Bible seem to be in conflict, it is because my understanding of one or the other (or both) is flawed.

Just because we interpret Genesis different than you doesn't mean we don't have respect for the Bible, and it's not very charitable to suggest otherwise.

User avatar
Perry
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:24 pm

Re: Is Genesis History?

Post by Perry » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:55 am

robbyyoung wrote:Maybe, just maybe we are deluding ourselves by not simply trusting God.
Who in this thread are you suggesting doesn't trust God?

Post Reply

Return to “The Pentateuch”