The Debates With Tommy Bertoli

[darinhouston]

Looks like the audio is on here:

http://www.messiahschristianfellowship. ... age346.htm

The links may not work -- if not, try these for the direct links to the files.

http://www.messiahschristianfellowship. ... 0ESDP1.mp3
http://www.messiahschristianfellowship. ... 0ESDP2.mp3

[JasonR]

Cool Thanks!

[darinhouston]

I haven't finished it yet, but so far Tommy seems bent on requiring Steve's position to have a single verse that states his affirmative position. When Steve called him on it and suggested he didn't have such a verse either, he responded that he didn't need one because he had all the salvation doctrine, etc. on his side. Sort of begs the question -- still, I'm enjoying it.

[steve]

Thanks for the links! I have not heard the audio yet, because they did not send it to me as I requested. Not having listened yet, I don't know how the recording of my first presentation came out, since I failed to turn on my lapel microphone. I had it turned on for my second presentation.

[Sean]

Thanks for the links. I just got done listening. Interesting debate. It does seem that Steve's position is simply misunderstood. Everyone seemed to equate perseverance of faith with works.

I do have one question though. Why is it that any passage used to show one can be cut off, or believe for awhile (i.e. John 15:1-6, Luke 8:5) do not apply to the church because it was before Pentecost, yet passages like John 5:24, 6:39, 10:29 do (for some reason) apply to the church? How convenient.

[steve]

That is a good observation!

[darinhouston]

Thanks for the links! I have not heard the audio yet, because they did not send it to me as I requested. Not having listened yet, I don't know how the recording of my first presentation came out, since I failed to turn on my lapel microphone. I had it turned on for my second presentation.

Yeah, it was a little low, but it wasn't too distracting. The questions from the audience were a bit hard to hear.

[Sean]

I listened to the debate again and I'm not sure I understand the remark Tommy makes about several passages Steve brought up. Tommy said they don't apply to the issue because they are talking about sanctification and not justification.

In Galatians, Paul says this:
Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

Gal 3:11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
Gal 3:12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "THE MAN WHO DOES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
Gal 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Why would Paul warn the Galatians that if they turn to the law after having received the Spirit by faith (meaning justification is a past event) as a way of serving God that they were in fact seeking to be justified by the law. Paul (in Gal 5:4) concludes this action is in fact an attempt to be justified some other way than by faith. This seems to suggest that someone who has "begun in the Spirit" and therefore already justified can indeed take action that would undermine their justification. They would no longer be living by faith in Jesus Christ but rather their attempt to be justified by keep the law. According to Paul, this is not a matter of sanctification but justification. Now if Tommy Bertoli is correct, then someone who tries to keep the law after having been justified and has received the Spirit then they have nothing to fear because justification by faith is unchangeable once it has occurred.

[Homer]

Hi Steve,

Just a curiosity, but I was wondering if you do much prep for debates or do you "wing it" as with the radio program?

God bless, Homer

[steve]

Sort of a combination. I don't really know how to prepare for a 20-minute, comprehensive presentation, so I just gather a list of points I would like to include, and relevant scripture references, and then I pick from the list as I happen to feel "led" while winging it.