Additions to thenarrowpath.com website

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steve
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Re: Additions to thenarrowpath.com website

Post by steve » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:56 pm

It is dubious for one man to attempt to articulate the faith of another. But how about working with your first sentence:

"[T]he books [of the Old and New Testaments] have been given as a gift from God, who commissioned the prophets and apostles, and who revealed to them the things that they wrote."

The statement might need further work, on a few points:

(a) Do you hold that all books of the Old and New Testaments were written by prophets and apostles? Esther? Hebrews? Acts? I & II Kings?

(b) Are these books to be seen as direct gifts from G-d, or secondary effects of gifts from G-d? That is, does G-d purpose for books like these to be written, and arrange for such to occur? Or is it rather that G-d gave his world certain persons, who happened to write these books on their own initiative?

(c) Unless you wish to telegraph a plenary verbal revelation, the closing should be revised. Perhaps, "and who revealed to them the things that they wrote about."
Thanks for the suggested wording. I will consider your wording, or whether I think I can improve on it. Perhaps it would be most accurate simply to say:

"I believe the content of scripture was given by divine revelation to the Old Testament prophets and the apostles of Christ."

I am willing to accept the traditional authorship of the books of Kings, which is the Prophet Jeremiah. I don't know who wrote Esther. I assume that Mordecai was its principal source. My assumption is that Paul had in mind all the Old Testament books, including Esther and other books whose authorship is questionable (e.g., Chronicles, Ezra/Nehemiah) when he wrote that "all scripture" is "God breathed." If so, then he must have believed that all of those books were written under prophetic inspiration in some sense. If so, that would make their authors "prophets." (I would have to rework my assumptions if I were to become convinced that the better translation of 2 Timothy 3:16 would begin "All God-breathed scripture is profitable..."

I consider that book written by Luke, Mark and the writer of Hebrews were "apostolic, because of the close association these men had with the apostles Paul, Peter and Timothy, respectively. My assumption is that Luke could never have published his two books without Paul's approval—especially with the second book featuring Paul himself so prominently. The writer of Hebrews traveled with Timothy, which places him in Paul's circle. Mark, of course, had Peter's authority behind his book.

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Suzana
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Re: Additions to thenarrowpath.com website

Post by Suzana » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:14 am

Sean wrote:I saw the debate with Douglas Wilson and listened to it. Interesting debate. Thanks for sharing.
AaronBDisney wrote:Sweet! I can't wait to hear that Wilson debate. Two worthy opponents for sure.
darinhouston wrote:The Wilson debate was good -- I especially enjoyed the last two tapes...
I’ve listened to the first two sessions so far, & though I’m enjoying the tone of the debate, I find the doctrine of Calvinism utterly incomprehensible; I’ll have to continue the series in small doses at a time so I don’t become too frustrated. :(
Suzana
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If a man cannot be a Christian in the place he is, he cannot be a Christian anywhere. - Henry Ward Beecher

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darinhouston
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Re: Additions to thenarrowpath.com website

Post by darinhouston » Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:03 pm

suzana wrote:I’ve listened to the first two sessions so far, & though I’m enjoying the tone of the debate, I find the doctrine of Calvinism utterly incomprehensible; I’ll have to continue the series in small doses at a time so I don’t become too frustrated.
To make it even more incomprehensible, his flavor is a little different from most "American" Calvinists.

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Sean
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Re: Additions to thenarrowpath.com website

Post by Sean » Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:54 pm

Suzana wrote: I’ve listened to the first two sessions so far, & though I’m enjoying the tone of the debate, I find the doctrine of Calvinism utterly incomprehensible; I’ll have to continue the series in small doses at a time so I don’t become too frustrated. :(
Yea, It can get pretty bad...Very philosophical at times. He (Wilson) definitely does not like the idea that God can know something without causing it (Nor do open theists for that matter). He even makes that point that you are the cause of your childrens sin (at least to some extent) just because you had them. Logically speaking then, God is the cause of sin. Wilson however disagrees that God is the author of sin and quotes the Westminster confession to make this case. :roll: Nothing like trying to argue a logical point when logic has already gone out the window.
He will not fail nor be discouraged till He has established justice in the earth. (Isaiah 42:4)

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Suzana
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Re: Additions to thenarrowpath.com website

Post by Suzana » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:17 am

I am understanding the Calvinist stance a little bit better (I think), but doubt I’ll ever fully understand it, and for the life of me I can’t comprehend how intelligent people can’t see the utter illogicality of it, mystery or not. (With apologies to any Calvinists present – this is just me expressing my own feelings).

Certainly if there’s scriptures that do teach a certain concept we are obliged to accept it, on faith only if need be, whether we like it or not – I did this in the case of the traditional teaching about eternal torment, being brought up to believe that was the only option plainly taught in the bible, before studying it deeper.

However, I’m puzzled as to why people would insistently continue to hold to a doctrinal belief that seems inherently illogical & contradictory, when there are perfectly sensible alternative explanations for those seemingly contradictory scriptures; and especially when the alternative better fits in with the overall teaching and revelation of the whole bible. :?
Suzana
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If a man cannot be a Christian in the place he is, he cannot be a Christian anywhere. - Henry Ward Beecher

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darinhouston
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Re: Additions to thenarrowpath.com website

Post by darinhouston » Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:21 am

Suzana, you have a good point -- even Steve frequently gives them credit for internal consistency, which I don't get. To me, though they certainly see it themselves as logically coherent, to me it's wholly inconsistent and illogical, and the only way they can hold it together is by appeal to mystery and by stating nonsensical conclusions to avoid contradictions with their presuppositions without having a logical proof (like merely stating the conclusory position that God's not the author of sin, though all they had said before suggests that this would be the logical conclusion). When something contradicts itself or their presuppositions, they just appeal to mystery or deny the contradiction.

I just can't give them credit for logical consistency.

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