The possibility of Omniscience and Free Will

[mattrose]

Reply to mattrose
Actually, our home for eternity will be the New Earth. 1 Cor. 15 speaks about Jesus' resurrection BODY. The word RESURRECTION itself implies a body. Paul's statement is that it will be raised a spiritual BODY. The adjective (spiritual) does not delete the noun (body), it describes it. It will still have physicality, just as Jesus did.
Before Creation, in Eternity, there is no physical reality, there is only the spiritual. At the end of the world, we'll revert back to the same. The physical is temporary. The issue is not one of grammar. Your notion of our having a physical body in Eternity is anthropomorphic - an explanatory fiction to help people better relate to the concept of life in Eternity. Mark 12:25 tells us "When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven." Matthew 22:30 and Luke 20:35-36 say the same thing. Angels are spirit beings, not physical beings; Psalms 104:4 in the NKJV tells us that God "makes His angels spirits" Ephesians 3:10 and Job 4:15-18 in the NKJV support the same conception of angels as invisible spirits.
kenblogton

AH! I think we have found the PROFOUND area of disagreement now!

You believe something quite unorthodox here. I completely disagree with you on this. And since you didn't respond to any of the points I made from 1 Corinthians 15, I won't take the time to respond to your misapplication of Mark 12:25.

[Paidion]

After Jesus died and was raised again to life, if his disciples expected to see Him again, they expected He would now be a spirit. Their thinking must have been similar to yours, Ken. Jesus made clear to His disciples that He was NOT a spirit, but had the same body (albeit changed body) as He had when He walked the earth.

As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you!” But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate before them. (Luke 24:36-43)

So He even ate fish to show them that He was not a spirit, but had a physical body.

Here is another incident in which He proved his corporeality:

Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”

Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.”
Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:24-28)

[kenblogton]

Reply to Paidion
After Jesus died and was raised again to life, if his disciples expected to see Him again, they expected He would now be a spirit. Their thinking must have been similar to yours, Ken. Jesus made clear to His disciples that He was NOT a spirit, but had the same body (albeit changed body) as He had when He walked the earth.
I agree that when he appeared to His disciples, Jesus had a body. If He had not had a physical body, they couldn't have seen Him. Jesus tells us in John 8:58 "Before Abraham was, I am" In other words, Jesus was the Spirit God the Son before He was Jesus the Christ-man, our Emmanuel or God with us. Why do you believe He would drag His earthly tent back to heaven with Him?
kenblogton

[kenblogton]

Reply to mattrose
You believe something quite unorthodox here. I completely disagree with you on this. And since you didn't respond to any of the points I made from 1 Corinthians 15, I won't take the time to respond to your misapplication of Mark 12:25.
I'd be interested in knowing what you believe is orthodox here?
kenblogtom

[mattrose]

I'd be interested in knowing what you believe is orthodox here?
kenblogtom

One of the earliest establishments of 'orthodoxy' was in response to some who taught that matter was evil and irredeemable.

The historic Christian faith has always believed that God created a material world and called it good...
That from the Fall onward God has been on a mission to redeem the fallen world 'far as the curse is found'
That God showed His commitment to material creation by becoming flesh (God is an incarnational God)
That Jesus Christ rose bodily from the dead
That there will be a future bodily resurrection of the dead
And that God will make a new heavens and a new earth
The closing scene of Scripture is not God erasing the material world, but fully inhabiting it

That you seem to depart from this orthodoxy does explain some of the issues we are having in this thread... so I'm glad we discovered this area of disagreement.

It is quite easy to misunderstand Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 on some points. I would recommend reading N.T. Wright on these issues.

[kenblogton]

Reply to mattrose
One of the earliest establishments of 'orthodoxy' was in response to some who taught that matter was evil and irredeemable.
The historic Christian faith has always believed that God created a material world and called it good...
That from the Fall onward God has been on a mission to redeem the fallen world 'far as the curse is found'
That God showed His commitment to material creation by becoming flesh (God is an incarnational God)
That Jesus Christ rose bodily from the dead
That there will be a future bodily resurrection of the dead
And that God will make a new heavens and a new earth
The closing scene of Scripture is not God erasing the material world, but fully inhabiting it
That you seem to depart from this orthodoxy does explain some of the issues we are having in this thread... so I'm glad we discovered this area of disagreement.
It is quite easy to misunderstand Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 on some points. I would recommend reading N.T. Wright on these issues
Thanks for your reply. We can agree on most but agree to disagree on the following.
Our future resurrection will be in a spiritual, and not a material, body.
Our future home is heaven, not a rejuvenated physical earth.
kenblogton

[Paidion]

Our future resurrection will be in a spiritual, and not a material, body.
Our future home is heaven, not a rejuvenated physical earth.

Similar to what the 2nd century gnostics believed.

Justin Martyr (110-165 A.D.) in his Dialogue With Trypho , indicates that he met a Jewish man (and his companions) who then had a conversation about the things of God, a conversation which lasted several days, wherein Justin tried to prove from Old Testament scriptures that Jesus was both the Son of God and Messiah. At one point Justin made the following statement to Trypho:

If you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [the resurrection], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they
ARE Christians...but I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.

Note: Commentators say “there will be... a thousand years in Jerusalem” means “the saints will live a thousand years in Jerusalem.”

[Paidion]

Why do you believe He would drag His earthly tent back to heaven with Him?

Maybe so that He will drag it back to earth when He returns:

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." (Acts 1:9-11 NKJV)


You agree that His resurrected body was physical, and when He returns in like manner as they saw Him go, who is going to see Him, unless He returns with a physical body?
Or did He just lay his physical body on a shelf intending to jump into it immediately prior to His return?

[kenblogton]

Reply to Paidion
Our future resurrection will be in a spiritual, and not a material, body.
Our future home is heaven, not a rejuvenated physical earth.
Similar to what the 2nd century gnostics believed.
You agree that His resurrected body was physical, and when He returns in like manner as they saw Him go, who is going to see Him, unless He returns with a physical body?
The Gnostics believed that the man Jesus and the Christ were different: that Jesus was a physical person and Christ a spiritual one; I believe they are the same person.
When He returns to earth, of course Jesus Christ will have a physical body, because He's returning to the physical earth. It's in heaven that He has a spiritual body.
kenblogton