Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. Verse Tool: show

"The Lord directs his steps"

Re:

Postby robbyyoung » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:50 pm

Hello All,

All of mankind is, first, spiritually dead and inherently locked in to having contempt for God, i.e., void of spiritual life. Logically, a dead corpse has no free will in matters of life; thus, mankind is a dead man walking (Romans 3:11). Thankfully, free will is a merciful and gracious gift from The Father—who quickens our spiritually dead condition. No quickening, no free will, and you remain dead (John 6:37; 17:20; John 6:44, 65). Therefore, mankind can only truly have free will in matters of salvation or spiritual decisions once quickened, by The Father, to the truth (Acts 16:14).

Now, here’s the heart of the question:

1. Will The Father quicken every human being? If so, when and how?

2. Once quickened, and the choice is to remain separated from The Father (Matthew 22:14), do you retain your quickened state or lose it? In other words, is the gift constant and relevant only for the perceived inevitable chosen?

Lastly, if universalism has any merit, it is gracious towards a spiritual awakening for all and eventual new birth. A condition in which, like our natural birth, we cannot change. And yet, life goes on in a loving relationship with God for all eternity. Maybe we will all be pleasantly surprised and corrected by what seems to be a dogmatic case for this, that, or the other.

Blessings!
User avatar
robbyyoung
 
Posts: 746
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:23 am

Re:

Postby steve7150 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:01 pm

Thanks for your reply, steve7150! I never really thought about that. I do not know any tradition Jews personally, but I do have a friend that's a friend who joined the Hebrew roots movement, and he's definitely not determinist. I guess most of the verse that support Calvinism do appear in the New Testament.










There are some instances in the OT Calvinists use like God hardening Pharaoh's heart or God picking Jacob over Esau or God choosing certain folks for certain tasks but that doesn't project to God meticulous control over everything. Did God cause hurricane Harvey and direct it's path?
steve7150
 
Posts: 2493
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:44 am

Re: "The Lord directs his steps"

Postby Clint » Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:32 pm

steve7150 wrote:Thanks for your reply, steve7150! I never really thought about that. I do not know any tradition Jews personally, but I do have a friend that's a friend who joined the Hebrew roots movement, and he's definitely not determinist. I guess most of the verse that support Calvinism do appear in the New Testament.










There are some instances in the OT Calvinists use like God hardening Pharaoh's heart or God picking Jacob over Esau or God choosing certain folks for certain tasks but that doesn't project to God meticulous control over everything. Did God cause hurricane Harvey and direct it's path?


Oh yeah, good point. I forgot about that how they use the example of pharaoh and Jacob picked over Esau. What they fail to mention is it says that pharaoh hardened his own heart (in seven different places) before it said that God hardened it. And, I've heard, as you probably have as well, that the Hebrew word translated "hardened" means to "strengthen." So, God strengthened pharaoh's decision to be obstinate and rebellious.

Good question about Harvey... imo, he allows nature to do what it does, though I believe He can intervene and direct it if He chooses to do so. I wouldn't want to think He directly causes every natural disaster. I know the Lord can control these things- It does rain on the just as well as the unjust, right? And, by the way, I'm not trying to "make light" of the situation down there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
User avatar
Clint
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:59 pm

"The Lord directs his steps"

Postby Clint » Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:03 pm

robbyyoung wrote:Hello All,

All of mankind is, first, spiritually dead and inherently locked in to having contempt for God, i.e., void of spiritual life. Logically, a dead corpse has no free will in matters of life; thus, mankind is a dead man walking (Romans 3:11). Thankfully, free will is a merciful and gracious gift from The Father—who quickens our spiritually dead condition. No quickening, no free will, and you remain dead (John 6:37; 17:20; John 6:44, 65). Therefore, mankind can only truly have free will in matters of salvation or spiritual decisions once quickened, by The Father, to the truth (Acts 16:14).

Now, here’s the heart of the question:

1. Will The Father quicken every human being? If so, when and how?

2. Once quickened, and the choice is to remain separated from The Father (Matthew 22:14), do you retain your quickened state or lose it? In other words, is the gift constant and relevant only for the perceived inevitable chosen?

Lastly, if universalism has any merit, it is gracious towards a spiritual awakening for all and eventual new birth. A condition in which, like our natural birth, we cannot change. And yet, life goes on in a loving relationship with God for all eternity. Maybe we will all be pleasantly surprised and corrected by what seems to be a dogmatic case for this, that, or the other.

Blessings!


Thank you for your reply, robbyyoung! I believe even though we are spiritually dead before salvation, I believe humans are free to make decisions in many ways, including toward seeking God. I believe that unregenerated people make decisions on their own, both good and bad. I agree, a dead corpse has no freedom, but I think that's pushing the metaphor a bit too far, IMO.

It's not that I have issues with someone who embraces the Calvinistic theology, they can believe whatever they want to on these matters. As long as following Jesus is most important thing, then it's all good with me.

The biggest issue I have with the theological position is limited atonement or "particular redemption." I just don't think God chooses a small number of humanity to redeem, while endlessly tormenting humans who He could've saved, but chose not to. When I was briefly leaning Calvinistic about 10 years ago, this didn't sit right with me.

Personally, I'm a "hopeful" Christian universalist (who believes in free will), but if the reverse was true, I would be glad to see all eventually sovereignly regenerated by God! If CU is true, who knows exactly how that will play out after physical death.

Actually, the divine sovereignty vs free will debate is not what it once was for me personally, although I enjoy dialoging about it. As I see it, I think CU joins the two seemingly opposing views beautifully. Even though, I do not interpret verses that sound deterministic like a Calvinist would. I think the basic assumption (Calvinist)that Gods will cannot thwarted, and He is loves all and wills that all come to faith (Arminian). Therefore, in the end, it makes sense (to me) that the salvation of humanity will eventually happen.
User avatar
Clint
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:59 pm

Re:

Postby robbyyoung » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:11 am

Clint wrote:Thank you for your reply, robbyyoung! I believe even though we are spiritually dead before salvation, I believe humans are free to make decisions in many ways, including toward seeking God.

Hey Clint,

You're welcome my friend, and thanks for the conversation. I agree, man can make decisions but he cannot and will not seek after God without God first quickening man from his spiritually dead state. I believe this is what Yeshua and the Apostles said and taught.

Clint wrote:I agree, a dead corpse has no freedom, but I think that's pushing the metaphor a bit too far, IMO.


I understand, but this isn't my idea; I'm simply stating Jesus' metaphor - Luke 9:60

Clint wrote:Personally, I'm a "hopeful" Christian universalist (who believes in free will), but if the reverse was true, I would be glad to see all eventually sovereignly regenerated by God! If CU is true, who knows exactly how that will play out after physical death.

Actually, the divine sovereignty vs free will debate is not what it once was for me personally, although I enjoy dialoging about it. As I see it, I think CU joins the two seemingly opposing views beautifully. Even though, I do not interpret verses that sound deterministic like a Calvinist would. I think the basic assumption (Calvinist)that Gods will cannot thwarted, and He is loves all and wills that all come to faith (Arminian). Therefore, in the end, it makes sense (to me) that the salvation of humanity will eventually happen.


I like the idea, but I'm still working through what Jesus and the Apostles taught concerning theses things. I'm not a Calvinist, but I do accept that God is the initiator of man's inability to seek Him out.

Blessings!
User avatar
robbyyoung
 
Posts: 746
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:23 am

Previous

Return to Calvinism, Arminianism & Open Theism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron