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Is God a Monster?

Re: Is God a Monster?

Postby Homer » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:09 pm

Steve,

Thanks for your input. I hadn't thought of the parable - more "food for thought"!

Blessings, Homer
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Re: Is God a Monster?

Postby robbyyoung » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:19 pm

Homer wrote:Hi Robby,

You wrote:

I must confess, I deliberately withheld the text that will refute the crux of you argument, however, even without the text, that I will soon show you, I believe my previous case was exegetically sound.

Romans 10:17-18 “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world (oikumene).


Sorry Robby, but I find your "Holy Grail" proof-text to be lacking. Perhaps you never noticed that Paul exactly quoted Psalm 19:4, as in the LXX:

Psa 19:4 - εἰς πᾶσαν τὴν γῆν (Strong's #1093)ἐξῆλθεν ὁ φθόγγος αὐτῶν καὶ εἰς τὰ πέρατα τῆς οἰκουμένης τὰ ῥήματα αὐτῶτῷv

When this Psalm was translated into Greek (the LXX) and oikoumene was used for "world" there was no Roman empire. But perhaps Paul used it in another sense.

Psalm 19:1-4 informs us that the natural revelation extends to the entire world (oikumene):

Psalm 19:1-4 New American Standard Bible
1.
The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
2.
Day to day pours forth speech,
And night to night reveals knowledge.
3.
There is no speech, nor are there words;
Their voice is not heard.
4.
Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their utterances to the end of the world.
In them He has placed a tent for the sun,

There is no question here that the LXX used oikumene for the entire world.

And further consider Paul's Use of the quote from the LXX:

for their voice has gone out to all the earth,(gen)
and their words to the ends of the world (oikumene).


Cottrell comments: "They are an example of Hebrew poetry's tendency to say the same thing twice in different words." So gen and oikumene are synonyms in this Passage.

But back to the Point of the passage. Paul's concern in the context of Romans 10 is that wherever the Jews have gone the gospel has been preached, thus the Jews are without excuse; they can not claim ignorance.

Again I must say that I, being a partial Preterist, have no doubt that Jesus prophetically foretold of the destruction of the temple in 70AD. What I dispute is your claim that Jesus did not command His Apostles/disciples, from then until now, to preach the gospel throughout the entire world. And just because Paul may have said that the gospel had been preached throughout the Roman empire says nothing about whether Thomas, or any others, had gone beyond the Roman empire. Can you provide a scripture of Jesus' words where they were limited in how far they should go, and no farther?

God bless, Homer


Hi Homer,

Yes, I know Paul was quoting scripture, however, I hope you are able to see that he is applying this OT passage to his day—the preaching of the gospel; whereby he claimed that preachers of the time have already delivered the gospel message to the Jews within the entire Roman Empire (oikumene), not planet, this is painfully obvious. Paul isn’t using the passage as some obtuse knowledge that Jews are unreceptive to the gospel, no, the end of the age was rapidly approaching:

Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

1 Pet 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

My interest is to ascertain what Paul believed, his understanding, and it is clear to me—and apparently his original audience—that his claims were valid, and the 1st century Church expectation of the end of the age was near. Why? Because of Paul’s knowledge of Matt 24:14 coming to fruition.

Homer, how in the world could his Apostles travel the globe before the end of the age? They knew what signs they were to look for (the Olivet Discourse) and what the scope of their ministry entailed (Acts 1:8). It only makes sense that the “inhabited land” in play is that of the Roman Empire. Unlike post 70 A.D. converts, Pre-70 A.D. saints were on a limited time scale before God’s wrath was poured out on Israel. The drama and expectation to the original audiences is dripping all over the NT authors’ letters.

Nevertheless, I maintain that Matt 24:14 has nothing to do with Post 70 A.D. evangelism. Why? Because “the end” already happened. Post 70 A.D., we are now in the age to come, and the everlasting gospel continues but without prophesies that do not apply to us. This is my understanding based on what I’ve read in these authoritative letters.

Well my friend, I think we will have to simply disagree on this. But, thanks for the lively discussion and kindness throughout.

Blessings.
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Re: Is God a Monster?

Postby Homer » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:19 pm

Hi Robby,

You wrote:
Well my friend, I think we will have to simply disagree on this. But, thanks for the lively discussion and kindness throughout.

I fully agree, I don't think we are going to change our minds. Many years ago I heard of J. Stuart Russell's book "The Parousia". I purchased a copy and eagerly began reading it and found it interesting. But then his exegesis became very implausible to me so, as I often do, I stopped reading it and on the bookshelf it sits.

You seemed to take objection to my suggestion Paul may have used hyperbole. Surely you know that figures of speech are often used in scripture:

Mark 1:4-5 (NASB)
4. John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5. And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.

Mark used hyperbole. Luke informs us:

Luke 7:30 (NASB)
30. But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.


Figures of speech are employed in many ways such as metaphor, allegory, metonymy, synechdoche, irony, hyperbole, etc., and take many forms just as we speak and write today (hell is represented as both fire and darkness). They are no cause for offense and do not imply any contradiction. The point is hell is not a happy place.

Be blessed in this year, Homer
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Re: Is God a Monster?

Postby remade » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:39 pm

Well I listened to Steve's comments that first started to thread in its entire context, namely I listened to the entire lecture series on God's Sovereignty and Man's Salvation. Very persuasive and convincing. Thanks for all that hard work, Steve.
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
- II CORINTHIANS 5:21 ESV
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