John 6:29 and Calvinsim

[Guest]

When I debate Calvinists they say that John 6:29 means (especially in the Greek, they contend) that believing is the work of God. In other words, God causes belief. But when I read the passage in context with verses 27 & 28 it seems like we are asked to believe, and that is the only "work" required.

So what is the meaning of John 6:29?

[Guest]

Hi Sean,

If I believe in my heart, it is because God has worked in my heart to believe. Is it I who believe? Of course. Is it God who moved my heart to believe? Amen.

Jude

[Guest]

Thanks for the info.

I'm still hoping to find out more about this passage specifically.

[Guest]

Sean,
I agree with you about John 6:29, and I think the context supports this fairly strongly. I have more to say about this, but will get back to it when I have a bit more time.

[Guest]

When I debate Calvinists they say that John 6:29 means (especially in the Greek, they contend) that believing is the work of God. In other words, God causes belief. But when I read the passage in context with verses 27 & 28 it seems like we are asked to believe, and that is the only "work" required.

So what is the meaning of John 6:29?

Well read it in context...

26 Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."
28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
30 So they said to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, 'HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.'"
32 Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.
33 "For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world."
34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, always give us this bread."
35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. (refers to God's elect)
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (take in context with verse 39)
41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, "I am the bread that came down out of heaven."
42 They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?"
43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.
47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
48 "I am the bread of life.
49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
50 "This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
51 "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh." (take in context with preceeding verses)
52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"
53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
55 "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
58 "This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."
59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?"
61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble?
62 "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?
63 "it is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
67 So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"
68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
69 "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God." (in context with previous statements)
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"
71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

This is where Calvinists get that this is the work of God (bolded statements esp). They read it in context with the rest of the passage/scripture. In a way you could say God causes belief. But we do believe, it is just that it has been predestined that we would believe and so who can resist God the answer is noone. (Romans 9 says, "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" (implied answer: noone) On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded (CLAY) will not say to the molder (POTTER), "Why did you make me like this," will it?")

[Guest]

This is where Calvinists get that this is the work of God (bolded statements esp). They read it in context with the rest of the passage/scripture. In a way you could say God causes belief. But we do believe, it is just that it has been predestined that we would believe and so who can resist God the answer is noone. (Romans 9 says, "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" (implied answer: noone) On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded (CLAY) will not say to the molder (POTTER), "Why did you make me like this," will it?")

First, the text does not say that God makes men believe or love Him. Second you are correct - God will have mercy on those who repent and will harden those who reject the Gospel. And as I have already shown men do resist the work of God - and you agreed...

[Guest]

This is where Calvinists get that this is the work of God (bolded statements esp). They read it in context with the rest of the passage/scripture. In a way you could say God causes belief. But we do believe, it is just that it has been predestined that we would believe and so who can resist God the answer is noone. (Romans 9 says, "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" (implied answer: noone) On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded (CLAY) will not say to the molder (POTTER), "Why did you make me like this," will it?")

First, the text does not say that God makes men believe or love Him. Second you are correct - God will have mercy on those who repent and will harden those who reject the Gospel. And as I have already shown men do resist the work of God - and you agreed...

The text does say that God draws believers to Himself. Look at the grammer in 6:44: "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

No one comes to Christ unless God the Father draws Him (and this isnt a drawing of all men, but some) and those who ARE DRAWN are SAVED, because He says that those that are drawn will be raised on the last day (i.e. eternal life).



Why would God harden people who reject Him? What would the point be?

[Guest]

The text does say that God draws believers to Himself. Look at the grammer in 6:44: "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

Yes, God draws those to Christ who first listen and learn from the Father. 6:45.


No one comes to Christ unless God the Father draws Him (and this isnt a drawing of all men, but some) and those who ARE DRAWN are SAVED, because He says that those that are drawn will be raised on the last day (i.e. eternal life).

John 12:32. If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me. But the point is, those who are drawn are those who first respond to the Father: 6:45 again. And it does not say that all who are drawn are saved. It does not say that all the drawn will come.

[Guest]

Dang it, Jim,
Do you always have to be such a stickler for truth and accuracy in biblical interpretation? When you do that, it makes the debate too one-sided! :-)