Paul on the law?

[Jim]

Paul frequently spoke against the law and works of the law as being unable to save. Is their another law also that Paul speaks about, which is not included in his teachings, but was central to His teachings on grace and salvation?

Yes, there is another law, which is not a law based on the mosaic law of works, but a law outside of the mosaic law. This law he calls the law of faith.

Romans 3:26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

So according to Paul we are justified by the law of faith apart form the mosaic law of works. This is were grace comes in because we are saved by grace through faith, not of works of the mosaic law.

[RND]

Paul frequently spoke against the law and works of the law as being unable to save. Is their another law also that Paul speaks about, which is not included in his teachings, but was central to His teachings on grace and salvation?

Yes, there is another law, which is not a law based on the mosaic law of works, but a law outside of the mosaic law. This law he calls the law of faith.

Romans 3:26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

So according to Paul we are justified by the law of faith apart form the mosaic law of works. This is were grace comes in because we are saved by grace through faith, not of works of the mosaic law.

Correct Jim. Salvation has always been by grace through faith, and never works of the law. That doesn't mean the law isn't good, because it is.....in fact it is called "perfect, holy, just and good." It is the heart's response and motivation for "keeping the law" that has always been in question, not the law itself.

[Jill]

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[mikew]

Paul frequently spoke against the law and works of the law as being unable to save. Is their another law also that Paul speaks about, which is not included in his teachings, but was central to His teachings on grace and salvation?

Yes, there is another law, which is not a law based on the mosaic law of works, but a law outside of the mosaic law. This law he calls the law of faith.

Romans 3:26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

So according to Paul we are justified by the law of faith apart form the mosaic law of works. This is were grace comes in because we are saved by grace through faith, not of works of the mosaic law.

What I've seen in the Letter to the Romans is that Paul was often using the word "law" more often in the sense of "principle" rather than "legal code." The idea was that Paul was showing a contrast of faith to the Law, but trying to show that faith was as strong a concept as the Law of Moses-- and possibly required as strong an adherence as the Law of Moses required.

Overall Paul was saying that the principle of faith (that we are saved without works and apart from Law of Moses) left no room to boast against those under the Law of Moses, as if living by faith gave more reason to boast in our abilitities than those had who actually tried to follow the Law of Moses.
Even if someone had followed the Law of Moses, any boasting he did would actually have been boasting in his ability in the flesh. So chapter 4 says that no boasting of our actions was reasonable in the sight of God.

[Jill]

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[RND]

What I've seen in the Letter to the Romans is that Paul was often using the word "law" more often in the sense of "principle" rather than "legal code."

Paul uses the word "law" to describe both the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic law.

The idea was that Paul was showing a contrast of faith to the Law, but trying to show that faith was as strong a concept as the Law of Moses-- and possibly required as strong an adherence as the Law of Moses required.

Paul also says we establish the law by faith.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Overall Paul was saying that the principle of faith (that we are saved without works and apart from Law of Moses) left no room to boast against those under the Law of Moses, as if living by faith gave more reason to boast in our abilitities than those had who actually tried to follow the Law of Moses.

Paul was speaking directly to anyone, especially Jews, that would "rest" in the law of Moses and "boast" about it.

Rom 2:17-23 NLT If you are a Jew, you are relying on God's law for your special relationship with him. You boast that all is well between yourself and God. Yes, you know what he wants; you know right from wrong because you have been taught his law. You are convinced that you are a guide for the blind and a beacon light for people who are lost in darkness without God.
20 You think you can instruct the ignorant and teach children the ways of God. For you are certain that in God's law you have complete knowledge and truth. 21 Well then, if you teach others, why don't you teach yourself? You tell others not to steal, but do you steal? 22 You say it is wrong to commit adultery, but do you do it? You condemn idolatry, but do you steal from pagan temples? 23 You are so proud of knowing the law, but you dishonor God by breaking it.

Even if someone had followed the Law of Moses, any boasting he did would actually have been boasting in his ability in the flesh. So chapter 4 says that no boasting of our actions was reasonable in the sight of God.

Because? Because salvation is by the promise of God. "Grace" through "faith" (promise) not by the law (covenant). Was Paul saying the covenant was no good?

"Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law."

[Jill]

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[RND]

By Faith, and sincere appeal into the Heavens, I promote the Law, as I understand the Law of God, i.e. what may be pleasing unto God, in my members. As Elijah of the fire perhaps. Yet, once established, I do not know who started the LDS tradition of "moral interviewing" by a very "lay leadership" of "its" supposed "many members", but... The Good Law, now being upset by outside interference, becomes a rock and offense to the soul. By Faith alone, to establish a moral law in my members for love of God, seemed much more successful than the loathsome "under the Law" many LDS unpaid lay leaders have so readily been accused of. The Incessant "Moral Interviewing" of the innocent or already repentant man or woman vs "by 2 or 3 witnesses the unrepentant to be brought before the elders of the church. I'de like to call this obsessive tradition.... "The Sin Makers". I think the RC Churches let the people come to them in the form of "confession" without going around seeking people out, but maybe they are guilty of "Sin Making" as well. By the probing and incessant interviewing by a horrendously layman leadership, or a well meaning spouse or mother, this provokes "sin" once again, establishing the "Law of Sin" instead of its intended opposite .

If you cause anothers "sin" to become established by shaming them in any way, good luck to you.

Wow Karen, you make it sound as if the LDS doesn't believe in mirrors!

"Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."

[Jill]

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[RND]

I intended to delete term "LDS" and just leave it open, as this problem of "moral interviewing" is throughout institutions more than just the Churches. I didn't understand the comment:

RND wrote- "Wow karen, you make it sound as if the LDS doesn't believe in mirrors!

When we fail to look in the mirror that is "the law" we see the problems in our lives less and those around us more. Christians love to say the this guy or that guy is a sinner, but not me....I've got Jesus. Mirrors help show how weak we all are and how much we all need Jesus.