Eternal Security & Free Will

NJchosen
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Eternal Security & Free Will

Post by NJchosen » Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:22 pm

I have a question for the Arminian Christians. I once held to arminian ideas and eternal security. I still hold to eternal security, but no longer to arminian ideas. Now from an Arminian standpoint most are committed to an outright rejection of irresistible grace as TULIP explains. But how can you believe in eternal security and the free will of man, together? For if man has free will to chose God, and they believe, and are made born again, do they still have free will after conversion? Or do they loose it? For if they have free will, then they can possibly also choose to disbelieve, even after conversion. Or from an arminian standpoint, is God's grace at this point irresistible? And none to turn in disbelief after conversion?

NJchosen

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Paidion
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Re: Eternal Security & Free Will

Post by Paidion » Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:29 pm

I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian, and I believe in both ethernal security and free will.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. John 10:27,28 ESV

And there you have eternal security. NO ONE will snatch them out of His hand. You will notice however, that His sheep hear His voice and FOLLOW Him. What if they choose not to follow Him? If so they are not His disciples. If they cease to follow Him they WILL perish.

The Calvinist, on the other hand, not only believes in eternal security; he believes in UNCONDITIONAL security.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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TK
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Re: Eternal Security & Free Will

Post by TK » Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:12 am

Steve G says that he believes in eternal security for the BELIEVER, which is essentially what Paidion is saying, and I agree.

There is a lot wrapped up in that word "believer" and it doesnt necessarily mean that you held your hand up during an invitation 20 years ago, although it might, if that person is a true believer.

TK

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steve
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Re: Eternal Security & Free Will

Post by steve » Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:56 pm

Being a "believer" also means that you currently believe, not that you once believed. I do not believe in eternal security for the former believer.

I wonder if the question is intending, by the phrase "eternal security," the doctrine of "once-saved-always-saved." If so, then neither I nor most Arminians believe in that doctrine. Calvary Chapel is unusual in that respect, because they are mostly Arminian in theology, but also believe in once-saved-always-saved.

Pierac
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Re: Eternal Security & Free Will

Post by Pierac » Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:06 pm

steve wrote:Being a "believer" also means that you currently believe, not that you once believed. I do not believe in eternal security for the former believer.

I wonder if the question is intending, by the phrase "eternal security," the doctrine of "once-saved-always-saved." If so, then neither I nor most Arminians believe in that doctrine. Calvary Chapel is unusual in that respect, because they are mostly Arminian in theology, but also believe in once-saved-always-saved.
What constitutes being a believer in the first place?

NJchosen
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Re: Eternal Security & Free Will

Post by NJchosen » Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:10 am

When I once believed in human free will, from an Arminian standpoint, I likewise believed in the eternal security of the believer. Also I believed that those who put their hands to the plow and not only looked back, but went back to their old ways, were simply never born again to begin with.
There are many passages that teach on the security of a believer in Christ and those who turn back as never being genuine believers. I understand this.

However, I guess my thought lies with how one would explain "free will". Because as I have understood the free will of man, it means man has the ability, despite his sinful nature, and apart from the influence of God, he or she can choose God and it is of their own desire or will. This is not to say God the Holy Spirit doesn't work in the process of it all.

I have heard in the past that God "doesn't want robots in heaven, but people to love Him genuinely" so He doesn't force Himself upon all those He is trying to save. God will not force Himself upon those who don't want anything to do with Him. Which to me, scripture seems plain enough that none seek after God. But my thought here is that if man has a free will as Arminians claim, then do they also have free will post regeneration? And if so, can they disbelieve? After all God doesn't want to force Himself upon anyone? or make someone do something they don't want to do (from an Armin. position)? Though sinful man has his fallen nature it doesn't seem to stop you from believing that man can choose God, though his nature is contrary. In this line of reasoning, can a regenerated person now with a new nature, a new heart, disbelieve? Or does his new nature prevent such a thing?

Next, is the genuine free will believer able to disbelieve? Or is grace irresistible at this point? Because if a once saved person, later chooses to disbelieve, it would seem that they forfeit their salvation?

As I have understood it, man choses freely to believe. But if I were to persuade you of something and as a result you believed and came on my side, it would be because of my persuasiveness or ability that lead you to believe. Doesn't God have the ability to save all humanity if He chose to do so? Does God not have the ability to persuade the heart of all? Just two years ago, I would have said, "God doesn't force Himself upon anyone and implores all to come to Him." But now I see that God, from an Armin. view, is stopped from saving all by the will of man. I do believe God can save all but chose not to. Though He loves all, but its His beloved Christ died for and will be raised up the last day.

Last, if two people read the Bible, and one believes and the other rejects, I would say it was God who moved in the one who believed, who drew him/her to Himself. But from an Armin. standpoint, I never thought about this years ago, but where do you stand? What was in the one who believed versus the one who did not believe? Why did some believe in Jesus when he raised Lazarus from the dead, but there were others who disbelieved even though the proof was before their eyes. Are some more spiritually minded then others? Is it something in man, or is it something in God that causes one to believe?

NJchosen

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Paidion
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Re: Eternal Security & Free Will

Post by Paidion » Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:07 am

But my thought here is that if man has a free will as Arminians claim, then do they also have free will post regeneration? And if so, can they disbelieve?
Why not? Even angels, who were created perfectly without a sinful nature rebelled against God. Why? Was it not as a result of their free will? Or did God choose to make them rebel?

And the angels that did not keep their own position but left their proper dwelling have been kept by him in eternal chains in the nether gloom until the judgment of the great day.
Jude 1:6 RSV


The following passage indicates that one can turn from his sins willingly and live, and also that he can turn from his righteousness willingly and die:

The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?

But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?

When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die. Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Ezekiel 18:20-28
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

Jim
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Re: Eternal Security & Free Will

Post by Jim » Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:54 pm

NJchosen wrote:I have a question for the Arminian Christians. I once held to arminian ideas and eternal security. I still hold to eternal security, but no longer to arminian ideas. Now from an Arminian standpoint most are committed to an outright rejection of irresistible grace as TULIP explains. But how can you believe in eternal security and the free will of man, together? For if man has free will to chose God, and they believe, and are made born again, do they still have free will after conversion? Or do they loose it? For if they have free will, then they can possibly also choose to disbelieve, even after conversion. Or from an arminian standpoint, is God's grace at this point irresistible? And none to turn in disbelief after conversion?

NJchosen
God is faithful and will remain true to His covenant promises which we become part of the covenant by faith. The word belief if I am not mistaken is taken from the word for faith. If faith is trust, loyalty, fidelty, obedience, faithful as defined, than yes someone could choose to walk away from their faith, and give up their justification.
Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.

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arealcinch
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Re: Eternal Security & Free Will

Post by arealcinch » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:38 am

I have always believed that once you are born again you are sealed and are eternally His. What a free and wonderful gift. Psalm 121:3; Matthew 6:20; 13:19-21; John 8:31-32; 10:28-29; 16:8; Romans 8:28,35-39; Philippians 1:6; Colossians 1:21-23; Hebrews 1:14; 1Peter 1:5; 1John 2:19

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darinhouston
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Re: Eternal Security & Free Will

Post by darinhouston » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:20 am

NJchosen wrote:However, I guess my thought lies with how one would explain "free will". Because as I have understood the free will of man, it means man has the ability, despite his sinful nature, and apart from the influence of God, he or she can choose God and it is of their own desire or will. This is not to say God the Holy Spirit doesn't work in the process of it all.
This is not how I understand free will. It is not apart from the influence of God, and it is not my own desire or will but the desire and will placed in all men by God. God does more than work in the process of it all in my opinion, but works to draw all men in measure. I don't know why, but there do seem to be men whom God draws with more strength than He does others, but He doesn't draw all men as much as He "could" or else free will would be eviscerated. God seems to balance these seemingly conflicting principles in a way that perfectly fits His Will, while preserving the opportunity (and accountability) for all to choose wisely or not so that they are not the robots you mentioned.
NJchosen wrote:As I have understood it, man choses freely to believe. But if I were to persuade you of something and as a result you believed and came on my side, it would be because of my persuasiveness or ability that lead you to believe. Doesn't God have the ability to save all humanity if He chose to do so? Does God not have the ability to persuade the heart of all? Just two years ago, I would have said, "God doesn't force Himself upon anyone and implores all to come to Him." But now I see that God, from an Armin. view, is stopped from saving all by the will of man. I do believe God can save all but chose not to. Though He loves all, but its His beloved Christ died for and will be raised up the last day.
Yes, it is because of God's persuasiveness, but also my willingness to submit before God reaches His predetermined threshold. Again, God could pesuade all but if he did so, it would conflict with His seemingly greater purpose of preserving the accountability and freedom of the man's choice to love and follow Him as a person in real relationship with Him and not in robotic control.
NJchosen wrote:Last, if two people read the Bible, and one believes and the other rejects, I would say it was God who moved in the one who believed, who drew him/her to Himself. But from an Armin. standpoint, I never thought about this years ago, but where do you stand? What was in the one who believed versus the one who did not believe? Why did some believe in Jesus when he raised Lazarus from the dead, but there were others who disbelieved even though the proof was before their eyes. Are some more spiritually minded then others? Is it something in man, or is it something in God that causes one to believe?

NJchosen
This is something I don't understand -- but, it seems to be a reality.

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