4 questions concerning Calvinism...please help

lee
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4 questions concerning Calvinism...please help

Post by lee » Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:44 pm

These things trouble me in accepting the "non-Calvinist" view.

1. If Jesus died for the entire world (not just the elect), then how could anyone still be punished (hell) if they reject Jesus, given that such a sin (rejection of Jesus) would have still been propitiated for by Jesus' death?

2. If Jesus died for the entire world (not just the elect), then that would mean He mediates and intercedes between the sinner and God, bringing the sinner, by His blood, into reconciliation with God (Hebrews 7:25). But this doesn't make sense because God always commands action (faith, repentance, etc.) for forgiveness, and thus, reconciliation.

3. If the Bible says that God causes evil (Isaiah 45:7) and Biblical narrative demonstrates God actualizing evil circumstances, albeit pragmatically for good purposes (Genesis 50:20), then doesn't this support the Calvinist view that God is "beyond" "our" morality?

4. If number 3 is true, then doesn't it show that God could, in fact, be within His character to damn whomever He wishes?

I'm listening to Mr. Gregg's series on Calvinism right now (almost finished), which are excellent, but I haven't heard anything concerning these issues.
Other than these 4 questions, I find "non-Calvinistic" Christianity to be the most Biblical, the most loving, and the most logical.
Please help :-)

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steve
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Re: 4 questions concerning Calvinism...please help

Post by steve » Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:34 pm

Hi Lee,

If the death of Jesus guarantees the salvation of everyone for whom He died, then we must either settle for Calvinism (which claims that Jesus only died for the elect, who, of course, will inevitably be saved), or else for Christian universalism (which claims that Jesus died for all men, and that all will eventually be saved). Of these two options, the latter would seem to have the fewer biblical objections against it.

Arminianism takes a third view, and does not assume that everyone for whom Christ died will necessarily be saved. There are many conflicting views of how the atonement works, and there are various metaphors that are employed to illustrate the various concepts. The ideas of a punishment being applied or a debt being paid are very common metaphors (there are also those that are drawn from the rituals of animal sacrifice, from the idea of a ransom being paid, of the removal of a barrier, and of a shepherd losing his life in an effort to protect his sheep, among others). It is hard to know which, if any, of these metaphors perfectly corresponds to the reality of Christ's atoning work, and which of them, if any, can be pressed to the final detail as parallels.

If we think primarily of a substitution—that is, an innocent victim taking the deserved punishment in the stead of the guilty party (the "Tale of Two Cities" scenario), then your objections would seem to be unanswerable, and we would have to choose between Calvinism and universalism. If, on the other hand, one of the other metaphors were closer to the exact nature of the matter, there might be other options.

One thing we can say with certainty, regardless which view is correct, a person does not benefit from the atonement without personal repentance. This means that, even though Jesus has died two-thousand years ago (for whomever He may have died), no one—not even the elect—is personally saved by that action without personal repentance and faith. This means that, even if we allow the Calvinist idea of limited atonement, and that Christ died for the elect only, it remains true that the elect man, prior to his conversion, is unsaved and has received no benefit from what Christ did for him.

This should tell us that, whatever metaphor we may choose for the atonement, we cannot accept any view that makes salvation automatic to anyone, just because Christ died for them. An elect man, may not convert until he is 90 years old, which means that an elect person can live 90 years prior to conversion, in a world where Christ might as well have never died for him, so far as his own experience of grace is concerned. How can this be, if the death of Jesus, two-thousand years ago, automatically covered his sins? If the death of Christ automatically removes the guilt and lostness of all for whom He died, would this not have occurred at the time of His crucifixion? Wouldn't this mean that the elect who are born after that event could never have been condemned, guilty sinners in God's sight—even prior to their personal conversion—since He had "atoned" for their sins long before they were born?

My conclusion is that we don't understand all there is to know about the nature of the atonement. What we know is what the Bible tells us: 1) that Christ died to take away the sins of the whole world, and 2) that no one benefits savingly from His atoning work without personal repentance and faith.

lee
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Re: 4 questions concerning Calvinism...please help

Post by lee » Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:49 pm

Thanks man.
That point hadn't occurred to me. It makes sense and puts the issue of substitutionary atonement right back on the shoulders of the Calvinist as well, if I'm understanding you correctly. Just to make sure, you're saying that if Calvinism were true, a 90 year old new convert would have lived in a world where for 90 years his sins were not "paid" for until faith and repentance took place, right?

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steve
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Re: 4 questions concerning Calvinism...please help

Post by steve » Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:33 pm

Essentially, yes. I don't say that his sins were not "paid for," during his years of unbelief, but that there was no benefit to him personally during those years, despite whatever payment may have been made. Thus the making of the payment does not confer benefit without the repentance of the beneficiary.

Jess
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Re: 4 questions concerning Calvinism...please help

Post by Jess » Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:03 am

Hi Lee,

You wrote:
__________________________________________________________________________________________

3. If the Bible says that God causes evil (Isaiah 45:7) and Biblical narrative demonstrates God actualizing evil circumstances, albeit pragmatically for good purposes (Genesis 50:20), then doesn't this support the Calvinist view that God is "beyond" "our" morality?
__________________________________________________________________________________________

Our God is indeed the One who causes "well-being" and creates "evil". But I think most people would think a better translation of the Hebrew word for "evil" in this instance would be "calamity" (as the NASB translates it). His creation of calamity is usually in response to the disobedience of His people. When Israel strayed from God He brought judgement (i.e. calamity/evil) upon them. I don't think Isaiah 45:7 and other passages like it mean that God is the author of true moral evil. Likewise, in Gen 50:20 it was Joseph's brothers who did evil, not God. He ultimately thwarted their evil purposes.

In Him,

Jess

Jess
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Re: 4 questions concerning Calvinism...please help

Post by Jess » Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:38 am

Lee,

As I read your initial post again another thing catches my eye. You mention God "actualizing evil circumstances", as if it were God who originally put the evil thought into the minds of Joseph's brothers. I think this is an extreme view of God's sovereignty held by most Calvinists, that God plans everything that happens and brings it about, either by His overt will or His permissive will. If God's decree is conditional in any way, they say, then He is not sovereign.

I think God's sovereignty is more complex than this. He did not have to create free will beings but He sovereignly chose to do just that. When He did, He chose to limit His own will and, as Jack Cottrell has said so well, "He bound Himself to react with grace if those creatures chose to sin. His nature would not allow Him to react in any other way! But again He does not limit his sovereignty, because He freely and knowingly put Himself into this position through His sovereign decree to create this kind of world."

These limitations do not limit God's sovereignty because they are SELF limitations and not imposed on Him from outside Himself. Cottrell concludes, "...they are God's own choice."

So, to sum up, I think the concept of God "actualizing evil circumstances" is in error. He does not control all that happens (as the Calvinists mean when they describe His sovereignty). There is much that occurs in the universe that He simply permits, perhaps most of what occurs. He does, however, reserve the right to intervene when and where He deems necessary in His wisdom.

Blessings,

Jess

lee
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Re: 4 questions concerning Calvinism...please help

Post by lee » Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:58 pm

Thanks for the replies.

Jess, in regards to the actualization of evil circumstances, I mean to respond to what Genesis 50:20 states: that Joesph's brothers MEANT evil, but God MEANT it (the kidnapping) for good, and for specific purposes. Notice that the same Hebrew word is used for "meant" in both phrases. In the simplest terms of my mind, God ordained a kidnapping. How can a morally good God do this?

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darinhouston
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Re: 4 questions concerning Calvinism...please help

Post by darinhouston » Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:39 pm

lee wrote:Thanks for the replies.

Jess, in regards to the actualization of evil circumstances, I mean to respond to what Genesis 50:20 states: that Joesph's brothers MEANT evil, but God MEANT it (the kidnapping) for good, and for specific purposes. Notice that the same Hebrew word is used for "meant" in both phrases. In the simplest terms of my mind, God ordained a kidnapping. How can a morally good God do this?
Just because the same words are used doesn't necessarily require that the same context is in mind. More than that, though, here there is a proximity of the "intent" for Joseph's brothers and the event (and in my opinion God's purpose was likewise proximally connected to the event). Unless you think the brothers planned this from the beginning of time, the Calvinist has an exegetical inconsistency between the two "MEANT" uses too. In my mind, the non-Calvinist actually interprets the two "MEANT" uses more consistently.

Jess
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Re: 4 questions concerning Calvinism...please help

Post by Jess » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:29 pm

Hi Lee,

Sorry to sound a bit like Bill Clinton, but your question depends on what the definition of "it " is. You wrote:
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Jess, in regards to the actualization of evil circumstances, I mean to respond to what Genesis 50:20 states: that Joesph's brothers MEANT evil, but God MEANT it (the kidnapping) for good, and for specific purposes. Notice that the same Hebrew word is used for "meant" in both phrases. In the simplest terms of my mind, God ordained a kidnapping. How can a morally good God do this?
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Gen 50:20 "And as for you, you meant evil against me but God meant "it" for good in order to bring about this present result..."
I would say that the "it" that God meant for good was the evil plan that was hatched in the minds of Joseph's brothers by their own accord, with no input from God. As Darin wrote, it may have been something God foresaw from the beginning but He was still responding to the foreseen thoughts and actions of Joseph's brothers and not causing their thoughts and actions.

So, the "it" is not just the kidnapping per se (which God had not caused nor necessarily intended) but the evil that Joseph's brothers perpetrated upon him. It actually sounds a bit like Romans 8:28... "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose" (i.e His followers). Did God Cause the evil? No. Did God allow the evil? Yes. Did He cause it to work together for good? Yes indeed. Praise God!!!

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Sean
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Re: 4 questions concerning Calvinism...please help

Post by Sean » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:58 am

lee wrote:These things trouble me in accepting the "non-Calvinist" view.

1. If Jesus died for the entire world (not just the elect), then how could anyone still be punished (hell) if they reject Jesus, given that such a sin (rejection of Jesus) would have still been propitiated for by Jesus' death?

2. If Jesus died for the entire world (not just the elect), then that would mean He mediates and intercedes between the sinner and God, bringing the sinner, by His blood, into reconciliation with God (Hebrews 7:25). But this doesn't make sense because God always commands action (faith, repentance, etc.) for forgiveness, and thus, reconciliation.

3. If the Bible says that God causes evil (Isaiah 45:7) and Biblical narrative demonstrates God actualizing evil circumstances, albeit pragmatically for good purposes (Genesis 50:20), then doesn't this support the Calvinist view that God is "beyond" "our" morality?

4. If number 3 is true, then doesn't it show that God could, in fact, be within His character to damn whomever He wishes?

I'm listening to Mr. Gregg's series on Calvinism right now (almost finished), which are excellent, but I haven't heard anything concerning these issues.
Other than these 4 questions, I find "non-Calvinistic" Christianity to be the most Biblical, the most loving, and the most logical.
Please help :-)
There's a free online book you can read that someone else mentioned here. The link is: http://www.xcalvinist.com/
I've read all but a few chapters. I think the book does a very good job at pointing out the real problem with Calvinism, it's contradictory statements. The first few chapters cover this and they are a pretty quick read. The Genesis 50 passage is covered as well.
He will not fail nor be discouraged till He has established justice in the earth. (Isaiah 42:4)

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