Post
by lee » Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:59 pm
Sean and Jess, thank you very much. Your thoughts concerning these verses help tremendously. I guess this just shows that we are definitely built for community and can really help each other as believers in the church (even if it's through the internet). After thinking through your comments concerning Genesis 50:20 and Isaiah 45:7, I feel that a non-Calvinist understanding of these passages are definitely more likely.
On a different note, the idea of substitutionary atonement still bothers me. Did Jesus actually die for anyone and accomplish anything? Does He, according to Hebrews, mediate for the whole world, or only for individuals?
Steve wrote this:
One thing we can say with certainty, regardless which view is correct, a person does not benefit from the atonement without personal repentance. This means that, even though Jesus has died two-thousand years ago (for whomever He may have died), no one—not even the elect—is personally saved by that action without personal repentance and faith. This means that, even if we allow the Calvinist idea of limited atonement, and that Christ died for the elect only, it remains true that the elect man, prior to his conversion, is unsaved and has received no benefit from what Christ did for him.
This should tell us that, whatever metaphor we may choose for the atonement, we cannot accept any view that makes salvation automatic to anyone, just because Christ died for them. An elect man, may not convert until he is 90 years old, which means that an elect person can live 90 years prior to conversion, in a world where Christ might as well have never died for him, so far as his own experience of grace is concerned. How can this be, if the death of Jesus, two-thousand years ago, automatically covered his sins? If the death of Christ automatically removes the guilt and lostness of all for whom He died, would this not have occurred at the time of His crucifixion? Wouldn't this mean that the elect who are born after that event could never have been condemned, guilty sinners in God's sight—even prior to their personal conversion—since He had "atoned" for their sins long before they were born?
I agreed at first, but after further thought, it seems like it isn't a correct assessment. Please correct me if I'm wrong. In the Calvinist view, however, the price Jesus paid and His substitution was definite, even though the elect person might not experience that grace immediately, just like a person has to wait for a check to be cleared at the bank. But it still is definite. And still, the Bible states that Jesus mediates between the saint and God on the saint's behalf. But if Jesus died for the world, then He would be mediating for the entire world...
I mentioned the xcalvinist link here. The portion for Genesis 50:20 is here: http://www.xcalvinist.com/44/chapter-5/
