Revisiting Acts 13:48

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darinhouston
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Re: Revisiting Acts 13:48

Post by darinhouston » Sun May 22, 2011 2:20 pm

I haven't been following this whole thread, so forgive me if I'm repetitive or off topic, but my take on the "draw all men" bit is that "all men" isn't even an issue if "draw" isn't tractor beam sort of compelling mandatory coming. He can woo or draw all men if all men are "free" to resist in measure. The same sort of discussion arises in connection with John 6:44. Here is an excerpt and a part of my response to a friend of mine re: MacArthur's Commentary on the subject. Apologies if there's a lack of attribution here -- I'm sure I got some of this from Steve and/or this forum, but it's all merged in my mind now.
Mac wrote:The third kind of election is salvational, the kind of which Paul is speaking in our present text. “No one can come to Me,” Jesus said, “unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44). Helkuō (draws) carries the idea of an irresistible force and was used in ancient Greek literature of a desperately hungry man being drawn to food and of demonic forces being drawn to animals when they were not able to possess men. Salvage yards use giant electromagnets to lift and partially sort scrap metal. When the magnet is turned on, a tremendous magnetic force draws all the ferrous metals that are near it, but has no effect on other metals such as aluminum and brass. In a similar way, God’s elective will irresistibly draws to Himself those whom He has predetermined to love and forgive, while having no effect on those whom He has not.
Darin wrote:This does not speak to whether the converse is true -- i.e., whether there are those who are "called" or "drawn" who do not come to Christ. That must be found elsewhere. His definition of "drawn" to connote "irresistibility" seems flawed or overly relied upon and, most importantly, doesn't appear to be derived from Scripture or the context of the surrounding text. Basically, I think there's too much emphasis being put on this definition of drawn. From a quick word study of actual Scriptural usage of the term, it is clear that the term is used most commonly in its general sense. Actually letting Scripture inform Scripture, the same word "Helkuo" is used in John 12:32, for example, in this very context is used with respect to all men:

Jn 12:32 "And I 2504, if 1437 I be lifted up 5312 from 1537 the earth 1093, will draw 1670 all 3956 [men] unto 4314 me 1683."

He clearly was lifted up. He does draw all men to Himself -- not all respond because "draw" doesn't mean the irresistible force he suggests it does.

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Paidion
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Re: Revisiting Acts 13:48

Post by Paidion » Sun May 22, 2011 10:02 pm

Daniel wrote:But I personally feel the Middle Voice is in view here in Acts 13:48, though admittedly no major English translation renders it this way, i.e., “were appointing themselves.”
Daniel, you seem to be referring to the classical meaning of the middle voice, that the action of a verb in the middle voice in some way affects the subject. However, this is not reflexive. According to William Mounce in his grammar book Basics of Biblical Greek, 25.13, "If the subject of the verb performs an action to itself, Greek requires the reflexive pronoun."

If the word "τετραγμενοι" is in the middle rather than the passive voice as you suspect then it would be "literally" translated as "were appointing for themselves into lasting life".
Now the NAS sometimes translates the verb as "established" ---- and the Greek "εις" (into) refers to a goal or purpose. So if you are correct that the verb is middle, one might translate the sentence "as many as established for themselves the goal of lasting life, believed." Congratulations! You may have hit upon Luke's true intention. This also contrasts well with the statement of Paul and Barnabus that the Jews considered themselves to be unworthy of lasting life. (vs 46)

It may be of interest to read what Greek scholar Henry Alford had to say about this verse in Alford's Greek New Testament which he completed about the middle of the 19th century, and revised several times:
τετραγμενοι] The meaning of this word must be determined by the context. The Jews had judged themselves unworthy of eternal life:the Gentiles, as many as were disposed to eternal life, believed. By whom so disposed, is not here declared; nor need the word be in this place further particularized. We know, that it is God who worketh in us the will to believe, and that the preparation of the heart is of Him: but to find in this text pre-ordination to life asserted, is to force both the word and the context to a meaning which they do not contain. The key to the word here is the comparison of ref. I Cor. εις διακονιαν τοις αγιοις εταξαν εαυτους, with ref. Rom. αι οθσαι (εξοθσιαι) υπο του θεου τεταγμεναι εισιν : in both of which places the agents are expressed, whereas here the word is absolute.
Alford then, after quoting several interpretations in Latin, remarks:
There are several other renderings, but so forced as to be mere caricatures of exegesis: see Meyer. It may be worth while to protest against all attempts to join επιστευσαν with εις ζωην αιωνιον, which usage will not bear. Wordsworth well observes that it would be interesting to enquire what influence such renderings as this of præordinati in the Vulgate version had on the minds of men like St. Augustine and his followers in the Western Church in treating the great questions of free will, election, reprobation, and final perseverance: and on some writers in the reformed churches who, while rejecting the authority of that version, were yet swayed by it away from the sense of the original here and in ch. ii.47. The tendency of the Eastern Fathers, who read the original Greek, was, he remarks, in a different direction from that of the Western School.
Paidion

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darinhouston
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Re: Revisiting Acts 13:48

Post by darinhouston » Sun May 22, 2011 10:46 pm

We had a related discussion on the old forum -- following James White debate re: periphrastic construction.

http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=2460

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Sean
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Re: Revisiting Acts 13:48

Post by Sean » Mon May 23, 2011 1:09 am

Tychicus wrote:
Sean wrote: It also seems that Calvinist typically take this same approach with other texts like John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself. A Calvinist would say "all men" refers to all kinds of men, namely Gentiles & Jews. Not each and every person on earth.

A similar argument is made by them about 1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Calvinist say this means all kinds of men. Not each and every man on the earth.

The context of John 12 does indeed seem to be pointing to the fact of Jesus drawing all kinds of men, since Gentiles were just introduced in verse 20.
Great observation!

Do you think the "Calvinist" interpretation of 1 Tim 2:4 is also correct? I can see the reference to Paul's ministry to the Gentiles in v 7 below, and I can also see possible support for that view in v 5-6.
No, I don't think this is the likely meaning of Paul's words in 1 Timothy 2:4. Though I do understand why they take the position they do.
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Apollos
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Re: Revisiting Acts 13:48

Post by Apollos » Mon May 23, 2011 12:36 pm

darinhouston wrote:Search this forum for "periphrastic" and you'll get a couple of related threads.

Also, we had a thread on the old forum immediately after the White/Gregg debate on the subject, at this link:

http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=2460
Thanks for posting this, I hadn't seen it before - the comments by Bob Anderson provided by Homer are very illuminating. The way he notes that the pluperfect argues against White (who would require an aorist) was new to me, but he's clearly right. Anderson really demonstrates why a little learning is a dangerous thing - and yes, in my opinion, White has only a very tenuous grasp of Greek as a language, but to the uninitiated he would appear very convincing.

Apollos
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Re: Revisiting Acts 13:48

Post by Apollos » Mon May 23, 2011 5:00 pm

I would like to clarify a point. I suspect both White and Anderson are mistaken when they say that the verb could be middle here. I don't believe a middle would be a possible sense in this kind of periphrastic construction. I'm open to being corrected if examples can be found.

Apollos
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Re: Revisiting Acts 13:48

Post by Apollos » Mon May 23, 2011 6:13 pm

eis' cannot itself be a direct object, and turned into the accusative noun for the verb, as though it could be 'established for themselves the goal of ...'
Last edited by Apollos on Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

Apollos
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Re: Revisiting Acts 13:48

Post by Apollos » Tue May 24, 2011 10:22 am

On the older thread is was mentioned that Anderson isn't with the University of Maryland. Did anyone ever track down who he is?

Gernatch
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Re: Revisiting Acts 13:48

Post by Gernatch » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:57 am

I apologize for falling off the bandwagon to my own thread. I just want to say that I have discovered the most clear explanation of acts 13:48 that settled the issue in my mind, however I would be open to criticism against the position.

http://books.google.com/books?id=LYCOTh4jpFoC

There is the book. In case the link ever breaks, the title is "The Quest for Truth: Answering Life's Inescapable Questions" by F. Leroy Forlines, J. Matthew Pinson, Stephen M. Ashby

Search for Acts 13:48

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Paidion
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Re: Revisiting Acts 13:48

Post by Paidion » Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:22 pm

Okay, I went to Amazon and read the explanation from the book.

What do you think the author means when he writes of "all those who had been saved prior to their hearing the New Testament gospel"? In what sense were they "saved" before they heard the gospel? If they were saved, then why did they need to hear and believe the gospel?
Paidion

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