Predestination according to the Non-Calvinist

[RICHinCHRIST]

Many of you veteran Bible students have probably already thought about this.. but here it goes:

I was reminded of this verse recently in conversation with a sister in Christ:


The word here for preappointed is προτάσσω (protasso) which is strikingly similar to the word for predestined which is προορίζω (proorizo). In fact, the word "determined' in this verse is the same second half of the word used for predestination: ὁρίζω (horizo)

From this verse we learn that God had determined beforehand the specific time periods and geographical boundaries of every nation of men. And for what purpose?



Can it be any clearer? God chose when every people group would live in order that they might seek after the Lord! Paul even says 'in the hope', proving that it is God's desire and hope for every people group (and individual!) to grope for Him and find Him.

This verse rebuttals both unconditional election and total depravity quite significantly. We learn that it was God's preordained plan to have His will made known to all people, not just certain people groups. Also, we learn that it is possible for people to grope for the Lord and to find Him. This is completely opposite of the first two tenets of Calvinism.

The Calvinists are quick to turn to Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 which describe predestination. I think those verses are explained quite easily by Non-Calvinists. The interesting thing is this: The four significant Calvinist uses of the word 'predestined' in the New Testament never refer explicitly to the means of salvation. Each time the word is used it is describing those who already are saved (and are easily explained by non-Calvinists when the biased framework is unveiled). The only other time a verse is quoted by Calvinists of this kind is Acts 4:28. That verse is not only explained well by non-Calvinists, but it still does not refer explicitly to the means of salvation (a sinner coming to God). However, this verse explicitly states that God's preappointed plan includes the sinner being given the best possible circumstances in order that they might seek after and find the saving grace of God. Paul even assures us of God's heart for every sinner when he says: "He is not far from each one of us."

The Calvinist must say that God is far from most sinners, and has made no effort to draw them to Himself. They must say that not everyone can grope and find God. They must say that God chose where and when most people would live in order that they might never be saved. They have to say the exact opposite of this entire passage!

[Jeff]

Thanks for posting this passage!

[RickC]

Greetings Jeff and Rich -

This post won't be about Calvinism, (afaik).
But I have some ideas that pertain to the text mentioned (Acts 17).

Can it be any clearer? God chose when every people group would live in order that they might seek after the Lord! Paul even says 'in the hope', proving that it is God's desire and hope for every people group (and individual!) to grope for Him and find Him.

Dr. Michael S. Heiser (link is to one of his blogs) is an ANE (Ancient Near Eastern) expert and biblical languages scholar. According to Heiser, when the nations were separated (at the time of the Tower of Babel, Gen 11), this was a judgment upon them for not following the True God. God, at that time, says Heiser, simply left them to their own ways and assigned them to follow 'other gods' as their punishment. This wasn't as much a 'decreed assignment' as it was 'giving them over' to what they wanted; that the Tower of Babel was, effectively, "an OT Romans One" (is his exact wording).

Deu 32 (ESV)
8When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God [footnote].
9But the LORD’s portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.

[footnote] -
ESV follows the DSS (Dead Sea Scrolls) rendering "sons of God" which is older than the MT (Masoretic Text, which has "sons of Israel"); LXX (Septuagint, "angels of God")
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Acts 17 (NKJV)
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:
'TO THE UNKNOWN GOD'.
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.
26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,
27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.

If Heiser is correct, God, in the ancient times had set all peoples and nations (Gentiles and Israel) in their alternate places and reserved Israel alone to serve Yahweh (though Israel, as such, did not yet exist at the Tower of Babel). The reprobate nations (Gentiles) were 'left to their own devices', so to speak, and were 'given over' to their own gods.

It is interesting to note that the ANE god "El" (the Caananite High Deity) was considered as "personally unknowable" (cf. Acts 17:22) and that only lesser gods could be directly accessed (in the Caananite pantheon). Also, in the Hebrew Bible "God" is sometimes called "El" or "El Elyon" (the Most High God).

Back to the thread -
To what degree Paul and his hearers knew the ancient beliefs might be beside the point w/r/t Paul's speech in Acts 17 - (but it certainly appears that Paul is 'referencing' Deu 32:8 in Acts 17:26)!

If God had, at one time, judged the pagan nations for rebellion against Himself (at Babel) - that judgment was now offered as being lifted for all who would repent and believe in Him and "the Man he has ordained (Jesus)." Repentance and forgiveness was also offered to Israel ("Yahweh's own") though we do not know if any Jews were present at Paul's Acts 17 speech.
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This verse rebuttals both unconditional election and total depravity quite significantly. We learn that it was God's preordained plan to have His will made known to all people, not just certain people groups. Also, we learn that it is possible for people to grope for the Lord and to find Him. This is completely opposite of the first two tenets of Calvinism.

The verse (Acts 17:27) definitely underscores free will.
In the ancient times (Heiser) and in Paul's.

I would say it also emphasizes Prevenient Grace (and radically so!).....
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Just some thoughts, know I may be off-topic. Thanks!

[Apollos]

Rick, that post has got me thinking ... I never noticed this before, but Deut. 32:8 uses the word 'oria' to refer to the 'borders'. This root word makes up the word 'predestination' in Paul also - προορίζω. Not sure if there is supposed to be a connection or not, but thought I would throw it out.

[Homer]

Hi Bro Rick!

You wrote:

If Heiser is correct, God, in the ancient times had set all peoples and nations (Gentiles and Israel) in their alternate places and reserved Israel alone to serve Yahweh (though Israel, as such, did not yet exist at the Tower of Babel). The reprobate nations (Gentiles) were 'left to their own devices', so to speak, and were 'given over' to their own gods.

I'm confused about the point being made. Indeed Israel did not exist at the time, but Abraham, from whence they came, did come out of a gentile place. When God set all peoples and nations in their places there were none but gentile places.


Blessings to you, Homer

[RickC]

A couple replies -

Rick, that post has got me thinking ... I never noticed this before, but Deut. 32:8 uses the word 'oria' to refer to the 'borders'. This root word makes up the word 'predestination' in Paul also - προορίζω. Not sure if there is supposed to be a connection or not, but thought I would throw it out.

Apollos -

Yes, I saw that in LXX ('didn't think to look till you mentioned it, thanks)!
Interesting.

Acts 17:26 (NKJV)
And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined (ὁρίσας) their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,

ὁρίσας - verb, active aorist participle
From ὁρίζω (horidso) -
[Strong's] - From horion; to mark out or bound ("horizon"), i.e. (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify -- declare, determine, limit, ordain.
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[Online Etymology Dictionary]
horizon -
late 14c., from O.Fr. orizon (14c.), earlier orizonte (13c.), from L. horizontem (nom. horizon), from Gk. horizon kyklos "bounding circle," from horizein "bound, limit, divide, separate," from horos "boundary." The h- was restored 17c. in imitation of Latin.
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You wrote -
"This root word makes up the word 'predestination' in Paul also - προορίζω. Not sure if there is supposed to be a connection or not, but thought I would throw it out."

Certainly makes one wonder if 'predestination' may have more of a core meaning of 'God's marking out boundaries in advance' - or maybe something like - 'pre-arranging divisions', doesn't it?

Consider -
Deu 4 (NKJV, bold/underline mine for emphasis)
15 “Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, 16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female, 17 the likeness of any animal that is on the earth or the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, 18 the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground or the likeness of any fish that is in the water beneath the earth. 19 And take heed, lest you lift your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, you feel driven to worship them and serve them, which the LORD your God has given to all the peoples under the whole heaven as a heritage."

Compare with Paul's Acts 17 speech.
God had "given over" the nations (as a form of punishment) to serve and worship the gods (other than Himself). But with the advent of Jesus, the 'UNKNOWN' God now calls all those nations to believe on Him and Jesus (the man He appointed as judge).

According to Deuteronomy 4:19, this "giving up" of the nations was a punitive act. Rather than electing them to a special relationship to Himself, God gave these nations up to the idolatry (of which babel was symptomatic) in which they willfully persisted.

Study Reference - Michael S. Heiser - click Gods of the Nations (Deu 32:8-9)
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Hi Bro Rick!

You wrote:

If Heiser is correct, God, in the ancient times had set all peoples and nations (Gentiles and Israel) in their alternate places and reserved Israel alone to serve Yahweh (though Israel, as such, did not yet exist at the Tower of Babel). The reprobate nations (Gentiles) were 'left to their own devices', so to speak, and were 'given over' to their own gods.

I'm confused about the point being made. Indeed Israel did not exist at the time, but Abraham, from whence they came, did come out of a gentile place. When God set all peoples and nations in their places there were none but gentile places.

Blessings to you, Homer

Hello Homer!

If I had written 'your reply' - that would have been better. The thing is: Apollos and I have been 'studying' (mostly in private messages recently) the ideas and topics that Mike Heiser addresses (at various places around the web).

The "sons of God" in Deu 32:8 ties in with everything Heiser says and was, technically, beyond this thread topic (Rich was addressing 'the non-Calvinsim of Acts 17'). I suppose I posted what I believe to be the correct translation of Deu 32:8 (the ESV) as a kind of 'plug' for Mike Heiser.

In any event, Apollos and I are finding a lot of what Heiser says as really interesting and challenging to our 'OT theologies', so to speak. I'll probably start a new thread here on Heiser, the way things look.

But, yes, Israel as such did not exist when God called Abram. He was a "Gentile" in the sense that the Jewish nation did not yet exist.
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I didn't mean to 'hijack' this thread beyond what Rich intended.
It's just that the Bible ties-in-with-itself so much!
From topic to topic!

Thanks all!