I can't recall if I've mentioned (on this thread, anyway) that: The only evidence that any Jews of the first century were determinists comes from Josephus, who describes the Essenes as the same. (To what extent the Essenes and Calvinists 'agree' would be another topic that would take quite a bit of evaluation. I've looked and not found anything on this, which doesn't make sense! I've mentioned it to some Calvinists, asking them about it, but they didn't reply)....
On top of this, Paul was a Pharisee, not an Essene. Now, had Paul been an Essene, things might be different. If such were the case, he would have been clearly deterministic and we would have no cause to question if he was. He would have fully outlined a deterministic doctrine. But as it stands, the NT has no internal evidence to support determinism of either an Essenic or Calvinistic variety.
TK -TK wrote:That's the concern- not calvinism per se, but it is no topic for a newbie to get mired in. there are many more important and pressing things to learn.
I don't think a new Christian - (or anyone for that matter) - can help but to think about stuff like: What does predestination mean? and other related questions. I would suggest that for a new Christian, rather than avoiding these topics for some time later, that it be explained that Christians have had differing views. Something like 'the Steve Gregg method' which says "there are different views out there." And that it might take a while (I've been at it since 1974! Not a Calvinist, not an Arminian, I know by now anyways),
I do agree, however, that a new Christian should not get totally 'caught up' on these things.
Also, you could find this person's church's site. Their doctrinal statement and/or course description may tell you to what degree they are Calvinistic (and even if they give all views)!
Jeff-Jeff wrote:....My dad (who happens to also be my pastor) and I attend a Bible study on Tuesday nights at another church. I didn't get to go last night, but my dad reported that the night's teacher taught on Calvinsim (pro) for over 1.5 hours. When he was finished, he asked if anyone had anything to say or points of disagreement and then a pretty fiery debate on the topic between him and my dad began....
You had mentioned you 'get along' okay with some Calvinists. So do I. We don't discuss Calvinism! (and have other common interests). What I'm hoping for TK's cousin's friend is that, to whatever degree they are exposed to Calvinism, they will at least see other views are out there to be looked at.
Back to the thread (generally speaking, and also to Daniel) -
I read Daniel's last post and relistened to Greg Boyd's talk. It seems to me that, from early on in this thread, those of us who have heard Boyd, or read what I posted from his lecture, are seeing and hearing the same words but not the same meanings of the words. This was partially why I 'backed out' of the discussion. Other than that, I'm still studying Openness on my own.
Thanks!