If God is X, Y, or Z

[TK]

i have heard it said that if what you think you know about about God can't be found in the person of Jesus, you have reason to question it.

What do you all think of that statement?

TK

[Candlepower]

TK,

Off hand, I can't disagree with that. I wonder if it works in reverse: "If what you think you know about Jesus can't be found in God (Jehovah), you have reason to question it."

Candlepower

[Homer]

Hi Candlepower,

Glad to oblige you with #667, especially since I am going to share what you wrote about being "right-er" with bible study tonight and the class I am teaching Sunday AM. My wife enjoyed that one also!

God bless, Homer

[look2jesus]

Dear Paidion,

So you'd still be willing to serve God if He turns out to have the character that the Muslims ascribe to Him? One who commands His people to kill Christians and Jews, and who will award the killers with 70 virgins in the next life?

I think it's a moot point to speculate that God may turn out be as the Muslims perceive Him, or as the Calvinists perceive Him (electing certain people to go to heaven forever, and others (the majority) to go to hell forever). For He simply does not have the character perceived by either of these groups. Thus it is meaningless to ask whether we would believe in, or serve God if it turned as either of these groups perceive Him.

I made no reference to Muslims or Calvinists--my point was that (presuming that we are all here because we were created by an all powerful God) the creature would owe obeisance to its Creator regardless of the characteristics of that creator. Now, it so happens, in my opinion, that the God that did create us is a loving, just, compassionate, and merciful God, and I would disagree with the Muslim or Calvinist. But, suppose God was precisely as the Calvinists believe that He is, would you then have grounds to doubt His existence because of your perceptions of how God ought to be? I realize that we have the Scriptures that do give us reason to believe in a God who is not as the Muslim or Calvinist would characterize Him, but that was not my point. Mankind, it seems to me, would have a duty to submit to his creator, no matter if He was the God we perceive Him to be or not. Either that, or face the consequences.

It seems to me that Jesus was not saying that they would die in their sins simply because they had an incorrect view of Him, but that if they did not believe that He was the Messiah at all, then the consequence of that they would not become His disciples, and would therefore die in their sins. for His sacrificial death on their behalf would be ineffectual.

I think the Jews that Jesus was speaking to had an incorrect view of Him. I referenced John 8 in response to your remark in your post to Homer. We might argue over how "incorrect" a view of God one has to have before one gets himself into "a heap of trouble", but you must admit that ones incorrect view of God can reach a level so as to put that person in such a position. I would just add that I, myself, feel that as long as a person is seeking to live his life in order to please God then, of course, God is going to overlook the fact that that person may have a flawed understanding of who God is but that wasn't the point I was making. At any rate, it is good talking to you Paidion, thanks.

l2j

[darinhouston]

I couldn't worship the "bad" god because Scripture, which I find reliable, makes it clear that this is not the character of the one true God and such a god would be a counterfeit. The question remains, "but what if the one true god really was so?" But, that's a moot question to me (though interesting philosophically) because He has already and continues to be revealed otherwise.

[Michelle]

Homer, I agree with some of the sentiments you've expressed. I think people who would come to God with this kind of "I'm not going to believe in God unless He is the kind of God that I think He should be" attitude, are lacking the humility, and submission to God that He would require, no matter what kind of God He is. A person who thinks that way has already put himself, if not above God, at least on an equal par with Him and I would think that such a person would be in a heap of trouble.





"No matter what kind of God He is" , so if Calvinism is true and God creates billions of people who have no alternative but to spend eternity in torment , whether it's flames or outer darkness, if i don't love God ,as my family, my friends, as many people who are better people then me suffer for eternity, if i can't or won't love God i'm not humble and i'm prideful.
I know on this forum the politically correct thing to say is "yes i'll love God no matter what he does", but i have to think about this. I have to think about it because it does'nt reconcile to mercy and justice and love. If you think this is prideful, i'm sorry and perhaps i am in a heapful of trouble.

Steve7150,

This has been on my mind all week, your last paragraph especially.

I know on this forum the politically correct thing to say is...

What do you mean by "politically correct"? Do you mean using language crafted so as not to offend? If so, it probably didn't achieve its purpose because you seem a little offended by those of us who say we'll trust God no matter what.

Do you mean making statements that we may or may not believe, but that we deem to be the correct position to appear to take? If so, I assure you, I really, truly mean that I will trust God no matter what.

"yes i'll love God no matter what he does"

I know that I have nothing to commend myself to God; I have to agree with Simon Peter when he said, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." I have nothing other than Christ Jesus and His atonement on the cross. I deserve condemnation and it is only through Grace that I have any hope. How can I not have faith? How can I not love God who loved the world so much that he sent Jesus to die for our sins?

... but i have to think about this. I have to think about it because it does'nt reconcile to mercy and justice and love.

You, Steve, emphasize the love of God, which I also am amazed about. You seem to be saying that since God is Love, you can know for sure what He will and will not do. I'm not so sure. TK posted a statement about questioning what you think about God if it can't be found in the person of Jesus. Remember when the WWJD craze was everywhere? My problem was that I don't know that I can predict what Jesus would do. The same Jesus overthrew the tables of the moneylenders using a whip and also wept over Jerusalem. Jesus at first turned away the Syro-Phoenician woman, but spoke tenderly to the woman caught in adultery. It just seems to me that the more I know about God, the more sure I am that I understand very little.

If you think this is prideful, i'm sorry and perhaps i am in a heapful of trouble.

(heapful is a great word)

I don't think you're being prideful, per se. I just can't bring myself to question God this way. When men in the Bible were faced with God's glory, even just a bit, their reactions were interesting. Job said he despised himself. Isaiah said he was undone because he was a man of unclean lips. When Peter saw who Jesus was because of a miracle, he asked him to depart since Peter was a sinful man. When John had his vision, he fell as if dead. These men were righteous men; I am not. When I am faced with the glory of God, judging by scripture, I won't be inclined to argue.

Michelle

[Ian]

These men were righteous men; I am not.

I can unequivocally and without the least fear of contradiction confirm that you are not a righteous man, Michelle.

[Michelle]

These men were righteous men; I am not.

I can unequivocally and without the least fear of contradiction confirm that you are not a righteous man, Michelle.

True.

I am not a righteous woman either, though.

[steve7150]

I know that I have nothing to commend myself to God; I have to agree with Simon Peter when he said, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." I have nothing other than Christ Jesus and His atonement on the cross. I deserve condemnation and it is only through Grace that I have any hope. How can I not have faith? How can I not love God who loved the world so much that he sent Jesus to die for our sins?


Michelle,

I'm not offended at all and by "politically correct" i meant that i think the general consensus at this forum is reflected in your statement re loving God no matter what.
What you quoted above is what i believe and John further states that those that die in their sins would perish. That's the heart of the gospel , that's the God that Jesus revealed to us. That's the God i love and owe everything to.
We are accountable to God because He gave us the ability to discern right from wrong and justice from injustice and mercy from cruelty and love from hate. Furthermore Jesus told us to be like his Father and Jesus said if we have seen him we have seen his Father so i think these things are said so that we may know God.
Certain belief systems simply contradict the above and can not be reconciled, like Calvinism. In Calvinism they claim that Jesus did'nt die for the sins of the world, that he is not the Savior of the world and that those not elected have no possibility other then an eternity of torment in hell.
I can only speak for myself in that based on what i know from the bible and the sense of justice that God put in me i can not comprehend Calvinism and i do not know how i can love a Cruel God.

[Paidion]

I couldn't worship the "bad" god because Scripture, which I find reliable, makes it clear that this is not the character of the one true God and such a god would be a counterfeit. The question remains, "but what if the one true god really was so?" But, that's a moot question to me (though interesting philosophically) because He has already and continues to be revealed otherwise.

That's exactly as I see it, Darin. I don't think it means much to ask, "Would you still believe in God (or serve God) if he turned out have the nature Muslims or Calvinists ascribe to Him? For since God doesn't have the character that either of those ascribe to Him, why speculate as to the unreality of it.

Suppose your natural father loved you and raised you to be kind and loving, and he taught you how to be a disciple of Christ. As a youth, would you still have loved him and coöperated with him if he had began to beat you severely, and locked you in your room for days at a time? What difference does it make would you would have done under those circumstances since those actions were completely contrary to your father's nature. Thus the question is meaningless.

However, for those who see it as meaningful, let me ask you this speculative question, "Would you still love and serve Him, if you discovered some day that Satan is the real God? Perhaps you see now why I consider the question meaningless and irrelevant.