A reforming Calvinist's corporate elction questions

[PapaJ]

If you feel like replying and won't read all the Scripture above, then please don't!

I'm giving you a big picture, please take one little part of the whole (above) and bring it back to the table, and then we can discuss it more.

[jriccitelli]

Papa, you seem to only hold to two parts of Calvinism (TALON, I guess), which is good.
The truth generally falls in the middle somewhere, because logically there will always be extremes to both ends of everything.

Maybe you were agreeing, but I do not think your answer to my one question was complete.
It seems that anywhere between 30-80% of Americans are professing 'Christians' or Catholics, and 20-50% of all people in western European nations are Christians. And the percentage of people who come from Christian homes are between 40-80%.
So, if God 'chooses' (pre-birth, pre-confession, whatever) then does he only send these chosen 'spirit children' (Sounds like Mormonism) into western world countries?
The number of the 'chosen' Christians in eastern countries like India is drastically lower than bible nations; India (3-5%), China (3-10%*) etc., not to mention Islamic Countries (0.5-5%), any glance at a world religions chart would reveal Christians are Christians where the Bible is read.
So, God must use His Word to save, rather than favor Americans over people in India.

Wouldn't you agree this agrees with Scripture;
'God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Cor.1:21)
'…the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written' (Romans 1:16-17)
'For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness' (Romans 4:3)
'Therefore, having been justified by faith' (Romans 5:1)

If Paul thought election was by His choosing - unrelated to our accepting the scripture and repentance - then Paul would have laid that down first, but Paul lays the foundation of Faith from Romans 1-8, 'then' proceeds to answer the question of the Jews following all this;
'I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh…' (9:2-…)
It is the Jews God foreknew and who were elected.

My synopsis is;
I believe God 'calls', and people need to respond.
(Otherwise repentance, preaching, believing, trusting, etc. is rendered meaningless, no matter what RC Sproul says)
People are drawn by hearing or reading His Word, with the light of His Spirit on their heart 'prior'' to conversion, they can believe or 'not' choose to follow the Spirit and the Words 'prompting' to believe.
If they do believe, it is still God who makes the final choice to accept the sincerity and surety of our belief, so it is still God who chooses those who have faith to be saved (So that no man may boast before God).

(We do not force God to accept us, it is based on His promise to 'accept' our faith as crediting our salvation, God still holds the right to refuse, and the right to choose the means and aggressiveness of His calling)

(*Please don’t believe there are more underground Christians in China than 10%, when the number of Falun Gong followers outnumber registered Chinese Communist party members)

[PapaJ]

Jr. Please do me a favour; I already had one brother here at the Narrow Path send me a note saying he was offended that I was using the handle PapaJ. I explained to him that I’ve been using that identity for ministry working with teens going back to 1997’ when my oldest son (in the ministry now for 11-years) use to call me Papa at the Youth Centre other teens would call me PapaJ. So Thank You Steve for straightening the brother out! I mean none of my kids call me PapaJ, merely Papa.

Also, when I started studying with the New Covenant Study group around 2000’ and with the Presbyterians associated with RC Sproul, my Forum email ID was PapaJthePolemist. Then later at my own website CPR Theology dot org that I let go due to finances 3-years ago I wrote articles under the name PapaJ, so when I came here recently I signed in with a PapaJ user name. Even though the guys in my discipleship group have read all my papers and tracts under that name it did not stick and they call me ‘The General’ my wife says it’s because of the Insurance Company sales cartoon (grey haired, short fat guy) to compete with the Gecko. Most of them don’t address me as PapaJ, so I don’t use it as a title, but as a point of identity.

Mostly all my 3-son-in-laws and 2-daughter-in-laws; along with my 3-oldest grand children all call me PapaJ. So if you call me Papa without the J it’s like calling me father, or Lord forbid ‘Pope; so please refrain from that, or I’ll have the whole Catholic Community filing complaints of misrepresenting him. PS, yes PapaJ has 8-children and 9-grandchildren all under 6 from half of my kids.

[PapaJ]

Papa J, you seem to only hold to two parts of Calvinism (TALON, I guess), which is good.
The truth generally falls in the middle somewhere, because logically there will always be extremes to both ends of everything.

Actually if you read the post at the bottom of page 2, I confessed to hold to 3 of the 5 TULIP positions and hopefully you read all those OT passages I listed, which will help me keep this shorter than 3 pages. I’m assuming this is a follow up to why God chooses more from one area (European, Middle East, Africa, Asia) than other area’s; lets not forget Mexico and the Philippines, but not now another 2-pages.

Maybe you were agreeing, but I do not think your answer to my one question was complete.
It seems that anywhere between 30-80% of Americans are professing 'Christians' or Catholics, and 20-50% of all people in western European nations are Christians. And the percentage of people who come from Christian homes are between 40-80%.
So, if God 'chooses' (pre-birth, pre-confession, whatever) then does he only send these chosen 'spirit children' (Sounds like Mormonism) into western world countries?
The number of the 'chosen' Christians in eastern countries like India is drastically lower than bible nations; India (3-5%), China (3-10%*) etc., not to mention Islamic Countries (0.5-5%), any glance at a world religions chart would reveal Christians are Christians where the Bible is read.
So, God must use His Word to save, rather than favor Americans over people in India.

If you understood all that I was saying about the descendants of Jacob being God’s elect people, which Calvinist completely ignore in order to come up with “those He foreknew” to be people God selected to be saved before the creation of Adam in some Divine decree. I keep asking them what is more Devine, God or their Decree? My point was in my previous posting, is that Israel of the 830 BC captivity went through their 70 years of captivity, and a percentage of them escaped to the north through the Caucasia’s Mountains to emerge on the southern steps of Russia as Caucasians, and then migrated to Europe. These people lost their identity of being Israelites, lost their written language (was never commonly used) but they spread their spoken language throughout Europe, we call it the Indo-European language. The Indo (Persian) from their 2nd and 3rd generation captivity with the Medes, in whose land they lived and the European (Hittite) a combination of Syrian (remember there were several waves of Assyrian captivities and the Syrians were taken first) and Israelite language, being they were cousins, their Linear A written language was a combination of Hebrew and Greek letters written from right to left, then Linear B was the early Greek language written from left to right. So sorry, Phillip Usher was a bit confused about his Table of Nations, being he had the Book of Genesis and a limited knowledge of the world. Usher wrote from his vast experience of being in his twenties, a doctrinal thesis, information he had just recently been taught from the school that hired him to teach the generation behind him; and that is what most college education is, institutions cloning themselves with parrots to spread their popular views. If Usher would have known what Marco Polo knew about the Asians, he would not have concluded that Caucasians were descendants of Japheth, who better fit the description of ‘coastland peoples.’ I mean just go to any Asian port and you will see Harbour’s filled with little house boats and people eating everything that lives in the ocean and Usher wanted to identify Mediterranean people who feared the Ocean as being ‘coastland people? 2nd their blessing was to be enlarged, 3rd they would be separated from the descendants of Shem and Ham.

The writings throughout the Old and New Testament is about the descendants of Shem and Ham and all their interactions and the only thing said about Japheth’s descendants in the OT is prophetical about Gog and Magog, names associated with the Mongolian people, hordes who came from the east to conquer Europe. So if I’m correct on all of this it would answer your question about why so many Europeans and when it comes to America, well just look at us! Benjamin Franklin wanted his new nation to be called New Israel, he might have been a deist, but in his days that only meant he was like an OT Jew, rejecting the idea that Jesus was more than a great teacher / prophet. With that as a foundation and the liberty given to Jews in American, not seen throughout Europe, it is no wonder that Israelite and Jewish people from all over the world have come here to establish what could be the stick of Ephraim, Ezekiel 37:16 before 17 takes place.

Wouldn't you agree this agrees with Scripture;
'God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Cor.1:21)
'…the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written' (Romans 1:16-17)
'For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness' (Romans 4:3)
'Therefore, having been justified by faith' (Romans 5:1)

No I would not agree since you are putting the cart before the horse, as does the Church of Christ with baptism. The idea that those who are saved, to believe is an indicative not an imperative. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, to those who believe. Again it sounds like an imperative, but the point is those who believe have had some type of experience before they actually believe. I know you read my testimony that I shared over at ‘The Role of Hell in the Gospel Message?’ For years and years I felt like a freak since other people I fellowshipped with were ‘easy-believe-ism Baptist’ I found very, very few who had the same salvation experience. I met all kinds of people who professed to have believed in Jesus, still struggling with sin or living a compromising lifestyle, so I just had to except the fact that God did not do to everyone what He did to me. Then I started hanging out with Reformed Calvinistic people at Dr. Morey’s church and I met all kinds of people who had the same experience that I shared on the ‘Hell Post’ then later I started hanging out with more Calvary Chapel types who were coming to my Bible Studies who had also experience dramatic transformations. And with all of them as I asked key questions they sensed God dealing with them about their sin causing them to fall before God; after that they confessed Christ to be their Lord and began to believe. Just like the testimony of Saul when God knocked Saul down, blinding him, he asked who it was, but Paul called Him Lord.

So tell me why is it to the Jew first and then to the Greek? You see it was the righteousness of God that was revealed to the Jew first and later God showed it to the Greeks. Does that have anything to do with God revealing Himself to the Jews first; seeing that the Jews from Nazareth was following Jesus for some time before Andrew brought the Greeks to see Jesus, wow Jesus just ignored them and when God revealed Himself to the Jewish disciples they heard His voice, but to the Greeks it was nothing more than thunder. You see it was not Jesus time, He had to experience that death after being falsely accused, then be resurrected before Jesus told His disciples to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature. And tell me who were the Hellenist? They were Jews who looked, spoke and acted like Greeks! And if you read primary source documentation, not scripture, instead of believing stupid 23-yr old doctrinal candidates like Phillip Usher, you would know that a Jewish High Priest, Jonathan Maccabaeus 150 years before the birth of Jesus said the Greeks in Sparta and those in Rome members in of Senate were descendants of Abraham and Jacob. It is clear from that record that Jonathan was inviting the people of those two great cities; to Jerusalem to celebrate the ‘Feast of Israel’ and renew the confederacy they once had at a time in the past. So tell me when that was? Hey I’m not going to give you all the answers; you do some research and tell me what document it was from?

And what does it mean that the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith? You see Abraham was the first one and then as we go through the Scriptures other men believed God. So even though God made all these promises to Abraham in Genesis 12, 15, and 17 it is not until Abraham is willing to take the life of his son that God reveals how great Abraham’s faith was, but obviously Abram revealed his belief in God when he moved his whole household down to the Land of Canaan, where they would be in danger. We actually see the righteousness of God as He saves unrighteous men from generation to generation; then we see this as we go through the Scriptures.

So, what does it mean to be justified by faith? Faith can’t mean the same thing as believe, the word believe is not an action word, but the word faith is an action word. Faith is not something you can make a mental decision about or for, but the word to believe is to give a mental acceptance to some revelation or information. To have faith is to take action based upon that belief, therefore the reaction of faith in a persons life is the result of God doing the work. This is why it says in Ephesians 2:8-10 that we are His workmanship, birthed through the call of the Father, the conviction of His Spirit, or the sacrifice of the Son to do good works, this is what God predestined, us unto adoption as His children and we were predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His Own Will, not our will.

If Paul thought election was by His choosing - unrelated to our accepting the scripture and repentance - then Paul would have laid that down first, but Paul lays the foundation of Faith from Romans 1-8, 'then' proceeds to answer the question of the Jews following all this;
'I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh…' (9:2-…)
It is the Jews God foreknew and who were elected.

Yes it is by His choosing, but He has designed through what He calls faith that we take the action of faith that there is a change in the direction of our life so others can see His workmanship so that His Righteousness is revealed from faith to faith. And yes part of believing is not giving a mental assent to His existence, but that we give a mental assent to accepting what the Scriptures say about Him, us and what He is doing in our lives, this is what comes through our being born from above, we are born of the Holy Spirit, which comes before our ability to believe; then the evidence of our ability to believe is our active reaction to what He says. We believe, we read His Word, we go to church, and we get baptized, all of these are the activities of faith and if there is no activity, then we have an empty faith and there is no evidence for our justification. This is why the Calvinist ‘Golden Chain’ starts with: those He foreknew, the descendants of Jacob being “called according to His purpose,” and He predestined that some would be conformed to becoming like Jesus, and those He was conforming (an evidence of faith) He would justify with the blood of Christ, and those showing forth the workmanship of God in their life would expect to be glorified.

Those Paul had great sorrow and unceasing grief in heart for were not all Jews of his time or all Jews of all time, but those Jews Paul knew personally, those he was close to when he was persecuting people of faith. He was not willing to give his salvation up for all Jews, he was probably glad that some of them were going to Hell, but those Jews he had affection for, his unsaved family members who now rejected him, he was willing to give up his salvation that they all might be saved. Now Romans 10 is not referring to those Jewish friends and family, but God’s plan in saving the singular seed of Jacob, excluding the descendants of Ishmael and Esau, which means he also rejected the Gentiles that Steve talks about, but saves the Gentiles Steve is ignorant of; I’ll eventually get Steve straighten out, since he has already straightened me out on things, years before we first met. And I know this will blow you away, but those of Israel in chapter 11 are not the Jews of chapter 9 or the Patriarchs seen in God’s sovereign choice chapter 10. The Israel in chapter 11 were those of the northern tribes of the house of Israel, who had been cast off and as a wild olive branch were being grafted back in to the holy olive tree of God’s election, in this way salvation can come to all of Israel, not just the Jews who were the last faithful remnant, yet they still rejected their Messiah. We know this because of the context of Elijah who challenged the Baal worshipping Israelites in the north, not the faithful Jews of Elijah’s days living in the south. Going back to chapter 9 yes Paul knew his brethren were of the elect, but he was still praying that God had mercy on them to eventually save them before their death.

My synopsis is;
I believe God 'calls', and people need to respond.
(Otherwise repentance, preaching, believing, trusting, etc. is rendered meaningless, no matter what RC Sproul says)
People are drawn by hearing or reading His Word, with the light of His Spirit on their heart 'prior'' to conversion, they can believe or 'not' choose to follow the Spirit and the Words 'prompting' to believe.
If they do believe, it is still God who makes the final choice to accept the sincerity and surety of our belief, so it is still God who chooses those who have faith to be saved (So that no man may boast before God).

Yes I agree with you that God calls some, but we are to proclaim the Gospel to all and just because some respond today does not mean their family members are not of the elect, of course they would be, but God has not saved them yet, and when God extends His convicting power through the Holy Spirit you know he is working through the preaching of His Word. No again you have it turned around, when God is doing His work, convicting men of sin, He has made His choice, nothing to do with sincerity or our belief. The best way I can put is that faith arises in the life of a believer when the Holy Spirit is indwelling the person being saved; in this way no man may boast before God.

OK, I’m in trouble now, PapaJ.

[jriccitelli]

Sorry PapaJ, we have to assume our user names will be misunderstood. I am John not Jr, but whatever, either will do.

You wrote; 'So if I’m correct on all of this it would answer your question about why so many Europeans and when it comes to America, well just look at us!'

I really did not follow this. (Since you are 'not' accepting the Calvinists doctrine of pre-birth / pre-belief election, right?)
I was just pointing out what I propose to Calvinists; The strange imbalance in the world if their doctrine is true, God places most 'all' the chosen ones in western nations, nations that are preaching the Gospel, and neglecting to place 'chosen elect' people a little more evenly throughout the world.
It sure seems odd that all the 'chosen elect' just happen to surface in evangelical circles, during revivals, Gospel presentations, and in response to hearing the Good news.
'If' people were pre-elected wouldn't it be more believable and logical that they would surface all over the place claiming they believe, without the presentation, and or hearing of the Gospel message?
I believe the presentation of the Gospel can shine through the deepest totally 'depraved' heart, and possibly move a person to consider Gods Love and Sacrifice.
I do not know how else to make this point clearer, but this seemed to have made a few of the Calvinists I have talked to think twice.

[jriccitelli]

Enough of that point though,
You wrote; 'No I would not agree since you are putting the cart before the horse'
I do not know if you meant; that I am putting belief before salvation, is the horse salvation, and the cart belief?

You wrote; '…instead of believing stupid 23-yr old doctrinal candidates like Phillip Usher, you would know that a Jewish High Priest…'
What are you talking about? I never heard of Usher (the R&B singer, yes).

You wrote; 'I know you read my testimony that I shared over at ‘The Role of Hell in the Gospel Message?'
I'm sorry I missed that.

You wrote; 'It is clear from that record that Jonathan was inviting the people of those two great cities; to Jerusalem to celebrate the ‘Feast of Israel’ and renew the confederacy they once had at a time in the past. So tell me when that was? Hey I’m not going to give you all the answers; you do some research and tell me what document it was from?'
I am not sure why I would, you must be going down a different road, I do not see why you are giving such an answer to my comments;
'It is the Jews God 'foreknew' and who were elected'
'I believe God 'calls', and people need to respond'
'it is...God who chooses those who 'have faith' to be saved'

(I might add to your note of Abraham, scripture says he 'was' justified by faith, you see faith was working with his works…
It is also interesting that when Abraham went up to sacrifice Isaac, it may not have been simply out of faith, but out of fear; "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God")

You wrote; 'And I know this will blow you away, but those of Israel in chapter 11 are not the Jews of chapter 9 or the Patriarchs seen in God’s sovereign choice chapter 10'
Your right, this is news to me.
("For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek", I might add there is also no distinction between Jew and Jew)

You wrote; 'No again you have it turned around, when God is doing His work, convicting men of sin, He has made His choice, nothing to do with sincerity or our belief. The best way I can put is that faith arises in the life of a believer when the Holy Spirit is indwelling the person being saved; in this way no man may boast before God'
I don’t know who is more turned around now, you or me, but your last paragraph does finally help me understand your position.

I think Calvinists have it backwards (no matter how long an explanation they can give), Moses heard God, Noah heard God. God spoke to Abraham Gideon, Samuel, etc. etc. His Spirit 'spoke' to the Prophets. It is Gods Word (and His Word is the Spirit, and the Spirit is the Word) that men must respond to and believe, what is wrong with all the scriptures that read;

But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed... 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved... "How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? …So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ' (Romans 10:8-14) (Is Paul not clear enough here?)

I do not know what kind of ministry Calvinists are involved in, but to me it is a bunch of nonsense (there I said it, and I will not apologize), I believe I should be sharing Gods word and Gospel so that men (and women) will be repent and believe, that, at least in my area, seems to be how people are saved.

[PapaJ]

Sorry PapaJ, we have to assume our user names will be misunderstood. I am John not Jr, but whatever, either will do.
You wrote; 'So if I’m correct on all of this it would answer your question about why so many Europeans and when it comes to America, well just look at us!'

When I noticed your handle “Jriccitelli” it looked like a run on name like LarryJJenkins, but I was not familiar with J Riccitelli or Jr C. Citelli so I was just guessing. Since you brought up why so many Europeans profess Christ and who many over the last few hundred years came to America; I just wanted to see past your Western (white) Europeans to see people from all over the world have been coming here.

I really did not follow this. (Since you are 'not' accepting the Calvinists doctrine of pre-birth / pre-belief election, right?)
I was just pointing out what I propose to Calvinists; The strange imbalance in the world if their doctrine is true, God places most 'all' the chosen ones in western nations, nations that are preaching the Gospel, and neglecting to place 'chosen elect' people a little more evenly throughout the world.

Well the Macedonian call from the Holy Spirit did give direction of the Gospel for Paul to go west, but Peter and a few others went east. What as mainly in the east were Jews who did not return to Jerusalem with Ezra and Nehemiah, so God’s call to Paul to go west to follow the direction of the children of Israel scattered into the nations of Europe. Acts 9:15; “Go your way: for Paul is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the Children of Israel.” So Paul was being directed to the nations where the Children of Israel were scattered. And since Israel is the proper way to understand “those He foreknew” it attack’s at the root of Calvinist’ belief in electing individuals before Adam was created. Most likely if you reject the Calvinist view and my view then you would theorize that God was choosing people “a little more evenly throughout the world.”

It sure seems odd that all the 'chosen elect' just happen to surface in evangelical circles, during revivals, Gospel presentations, and in response to hearing the Good news. 'If' people were pre-elected wouldn't it be more believable and logical that they would surface all over the place claiming they believe, without the presentation, and or hearing of the Gospel message? I believe the presentation of the Gospel can shine through the deepest totally 'depraved' heart, and possibly move a person to consider Gods Love and Sacrifice. I do not know how else to make this point clearer, but this seemed to have made a few of the Calvinists I have talked to think twice.

Well you are assuming that all those people making professions of faith in Christ during the periods of Great Awakenings were all truth believers. Thousands of people have made professions of faith with Billy Graham and Greg Laurie, but never read their Bibles or darken the doors of good churches, so they are professing Christians, not born of the Spirit. Well it is more than the presentation of the Gospel, who must have the witness and convicting power of the Holy Spirit to do the work of transforming a life. Moving people “to consider God’s love and Sacrifice” does not change them. I find most Calvinist like Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons to be pretty ignorant, so it does not take much to make a good number of Calvinist’ to think twice.

You wrote; 'No I would not agree since you are putting the cart before the horse'
I do not know if you meant; that I am putting belief before salvation, is the horse salvation, and the cart belief? You wrote; … instead of believing stupid 23-yr old doctrinal candidates like Phillip Usher, you would know that a Jewish High Priest …'
What are you talking about? I never heard of Usher (the R&B singer, yes).

Putting “the cart before the horse” was a reference to what you wrote saying, “Wouldn't you agree this agrees with Scripture;
'God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Cor.1:21).” It is not the way it appears in the English the phrase “to save them that believe,” was not an imperative nor a command, believing is the evidence that they are saved, witnessed by them showing forth there faith. Bishop Usher was his was his last title as a Irish minister, but when he was 23 in order to get his final degree he wrote a paper called ‘Table of Nations’ coming from the information in Genesis 10.

You wrote; 'It is clear from that record that Jonathan was inviting the people of those two great cities; to Jerusalem to celebrate the ‘Feast of Israel’ and renew the confederacy they once had at a time in the past. So tell me when that was? Hey I’m not going to give you all the answers; you do some research and tell me what document it was from?' I am not sure why I would, you must be going down a different road, I do not see why you are giving such an answer to my comments; 'It is the Jews God 'foreknew' and who were elected' 'I believe God 'calls', and people need to respond' 'it is...God who chooses those who 'have faith' to be saved'

No problem if your not ready for that, and you are correct God calls through the conviction power of His Holy Spirit, if that does not take place you can’t respond or come to Him any other way. The reason I can’t fully accept ‘I’ in the TULIP is the fact that people do Resist when they first hear the Gospel, some give testimony of them running from God. Now the question is are they resisting the General Call or are they resisting the effectual call? I will concede with my Calvinist friends they may be right, but I have heard too many give testimony that they rebelled and resisted and ran from God and here is the important part, they were all captured by the Love of God in the end and came to Him. This means though there are many still running and how do we know they will continue to run or not? So what I can not say until I stand with one running from God on their death bed is, are they running from a General Call or an effectual call. Is it their wife wanting them to get saved and bringing the preacher with her to get him saved or is it the work of the Holy Spirit making them miserable until they stop resisting? The problem is there are too many warnings not to harden your heart when he calls to say it is ‘Irresistible’ but on the other end look what God did to Saul, knocked him to the ground, blinded him with His glory, then sent him another direction to find his sight. That was not ‘Irresistible’ that was compelling.

Yes people need to respond, but there you go getting the cart before the horse again, if God only chooses those who ‘have faith’ to be saved, then that faith of themselves would be a merit. This is why I and every Calvinist would say that faith is not a substance to control, but God gives us the faith through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when we get born of His Spirit from above. What we call faith is "His workmanship” Ephesians 2:10 in us, showing to others the evidence that we believe. Yes I dump the garbage that comes along with Calvinism, but the heart of the argument with them is, salvation is all of God and the evidence that we are saved is that our life is in the process of changing, we are “His workmanship.” “If we are in Christ, we are a new creation, created unto good works” we don’t do the good works, He does the work in us. The outward evidence that He is doing something in us is that we turn from the way we were living (repent) and now we are reading, praying, fellowshipping and following Him in baptism, these are the evidences of a new life in Christ.

The error in ‘free will’ is that we can do all those things and “take the Kingdom by force” stand out on the street corner with our ‘Awake’ magazine, go to Bible Studies, witness door to door and still go to Hell if the Holy Spirit does not do the work of convicting you of your sins and revealing to you (usually through someone proclaiming the Good News) that you need to be saved and you coming to Christ through that door, if you come in from your own self (free) will and jump the fence to get into the fold then you are a thief and a robber. You can’t attain eternal life or get into the kingdom without going through Christ, He is the Door. Our problem is we want everybody to go to heaven so we make it easy, ‘hey just try Jesus, He loves you’ and we try to get a prayer out of them and their life never changes, but we make ourselves feel good that we got them saved, but they are more lost than you the Pharisee who they are following if you preach that cheap synergistic gospel, which is another gospel and not the real Gospel, ‘good news’ that Jesus actually saves and changes the lives of sinners, in this the “righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith.”

This should be good enough for now, I've got some work I need to get done, leaving for Paso Robles on Monday morning, hope to have the internet up there next week.

[psimmond]

21centpilgrim, you don't have to choose between Calvinism and Arminianism. When it comes to election, I think both Open Theism and Molinism do a better job of explaining how God's foreordination can exist alongside of human free will.

Of course there are huge differences between Open Theism and Molinism regarding election:

Open Theism says God predestined at the foundation of the world that there would be a group of believers (the Elect). As people throughout history placed their faith in God, they joined this group and can now be considered elect individuals. (Corporate election preceded individual election.) Open Theism stresses God's probabilistic knowledge.

Molinism is closer to Calvinism and Classical Arminianism in that it affirms individual election. And of these two, it's closer to Classical Arminianism since it affirms individual election based on God's foreknowledge. Molinism stresses God's middle knowledge.

Because I do think scripture teaches that individuals were predestined (appointed, ordained, etc.) to eternal life before the foundation of the world, I think Molinism does a better job than any of the other -isms in reconciling God's foreordination with human free will.

Here's a link where a Molinist (William Lane Craig) defends his position by addressing various critiques from a Classical Arminian (David Hunt):
http://www.lewissociety.org/middle.php

This book would be another great resource: http://www.amazon.com/Divine-Foreknowle ... 0830826521

Lastly, some will dismiss Open Theism and Molinism outright by saying they're nothing more than philosophical positions, but this is a cheap shot since all of the -isms use philosophy (human knowledge) to try to reconcile God's foreordination with human free will.

[PapaJ]

21centpilgrim, you don't have to choose between Calvinism and Arminianism. When it comes to election, I think both Open Theism and Molinism do a better job of explaining how God's foreordination can exist alongside of human free will.

Neither do a good job of understanding the Scriptures when dealing with the foreknowledge of God. They are both theological theories disconnected from the Scriptures. When I say both, I’m not speaking of Open Theism and Molinism, I speaking of Calvinism verses the Process Theology being used to define Arminianism. The original Arminians believed in an all knowing God, not this dribble from 19th Century Philosophers Whitehead and Hartshome who seem to have adopted Mormon Theology saying God is like His creation, learning as He goes just a ways ahead of His creation. Like I said these are the theories of men that Jesus attacked when He came to those who claimed to be followers of Moses and the other Prophets

The word foreordination is not in Scripture and the word foreknowledge is only found in two places; first in Acts 2:23 where the concept of foreknowledge appears to be two sides of the same concept. First the determinate counsel of the Trinity on one side and on the other side by the wicked hands of sinners. This is why Spurgeon said he expected to see a sign as he entered the Pearly Gates facing him saying, “Whosoever Will” and on the backside after entering in he would look back to see it written, “Chosen before the Foundation of the World” well he was a Calvinist and he had it almost right, there are two sides to this issue. Second in 1 Peter 1:2 Peter referenced those scattered (Israel) as seen in James 1:1 “to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.” It is clear from 1 Peter 1:8-10 “You rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls; of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you” and 2:9-10 saying, “You are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light: which in time past were (Israel) not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy,” Hosea 2:23 and Romans 11:30.”

Lets go to a passage every Calvinist loves to take non-Calvinist to being Romans 8:29 saying, “For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son.” The evidence of faith is that you are conforming to the image of Jesus Christ that also indicates that you are in a state of repentance, no longer walking in the direction of the lust of the flesh, but walking in the Spirit. I’m not like those theologians who see Romans 9-11 as being a parenthetical reference to Israel, but the whole book is being directed to Jews and Gentiles. The point being those who God foreknew was not a theological concept of individuals known to God before the creation of Adam and Eve, as theorized by Calvinist. Those God foreknew were His people Israel as Hosea predicted being referenced in Romans 11 being “a wild olive tree” with their ancestors having been broken off from “the root and fatness of (Israel) the olive tree” in the days of Hosea. Those being broken off were not Christ rejecting Jews, but a reference to the descendants of the covenant breakers who God was redeeming from the nations (Gentiles) as promised in Jeremiah 31 that the New Covenant would make provision for.

The subject of ‘Free Will’ seems to do more to drive the emotions than cause people to think, a debate usually relegated to 2nd year Bible College students who to quickly take sides, never to think the subject through again; only to get upset when the subject comes up. One objection that falls short makes much of the conflict between the ‘Sovereignty of God’ and the ‘free will of man.’ The fact is that God can be sovereign and still hold us accountable for the decisions we make. It is impossible for the ‘Free Will’ people to win the argument with unsupported feelings that God can’t know everything, yet they themselves must confess they don’t know everything either! So how is it that created beings think they have evolved, to find themselves in a position to limit the creator of the universe, unless they themselves know everything? Now if the Bible is correct and God is all knowing, how could they possibly know the decisions they make today are not already set in stone. The fact is if God knows all, then history is His story and He could have orchestrated everything just as a lumberjack would choose a tree, mark it, then return at a set date to have it fall at a precise time, in an exact place; then as time crosses the path of that day, hour and place, it happens.

The Bible tells us God knows everything, He is prepared for all the decisions we will be faced with and the outcome of any particular option we have, He also knows how the decisions we make will affect others, as well as shape the person we will become 30-years from now. Not only does He know the decision we will be leaning toward, but He knows our thinking process and what outside force would cause us to change our direction: then use that thing to lead us in His direction. In this way ‘God’s Will’ can be perfectly planned and executed while we make our limited choices. Now I’m not saying I know He did it this way, I’m saying a ‘Being’ who knows all things, could be setting people up; people having limited knowledge, but there are other points in God’s Word we must consider.

I believe most thinkers who see the fallacy of ‘Free Will’ would concur that God controls the final outcome, not necessarily every little detail that leads us to the final outcome. We see this in the historic account of the children of Israel wandering through the wilderness. The distance from Egypt to Canaan was not far, but the Israelites had problems and God was all about revealing those problems to them and for people like us. They went around in circles repeating many of the same mistakes; the result of bad decisions they were free to make. God went through a process of saving some and allowing others to perish as a result of their poor decisions that God called rebellion. Then when it seemed there was no hope for them to make it in, God eliminated the offending generation who left Egypt and used their children, born in the wilderness to conquer and take control of the ‘Promised Land.’ This conquering generation obviously learned from watching God deal with their foolish parents and grandparents; this is why some youth get on the fast track after getting saved; God using young committed believers, while others finally get it years later.

The largest theological group rejecting the concept of ‘Free Will’ are referred to as Calvinist and are usually thought to be fatalist, but actually only a small percentage of Calvinist hold that position. The facts are that Muslims are the true fatalists of a confused sort, trying to hide their sinful decisions. We are given the impression that Allah is an all-knowing righteous being who is predictable. But the informed Muslims know from the writings of Mohammad that Allah is not only unpredictable; he is surprisingly deceitful. In contrast many students of the Bible agree with the Calvinist on several points, believing men have no ability to make right decisions without God’s help. Balanced Calvinist and Bible students see the truth that the entirety of mankind is without hope, being sinners through and through; believing only a touch from God with the guidance of the Holy Spirit is man able to make decisions that will please Him. This means mankind normally works in opposition to God’s Will, resisting Him.

Accept for the Remonstrant’s all Orthodox Christians confessed that God initiated the work of salvation; a hundred and some years later this view was made popular again by the Methodist. The first denomination to affirm Arminianism, which was a new twist on the old Pelagian Heresy, we call semi-Pelagianism, was redefined by a Dutch Theologian and made popular by John Wesley. In the early 1800’ this unstable position in less than 200 years has split into 28 denominations sharing views with ancient and modern cults; based upon the teachings that deal with mans ‘Free Will.’ In contrast if we look at the fruit produced by those opposed to the ‘Free Will’ position, their leaders had no desire to establish or split into denominations. History is clear that several men attempted to reform the Catholic Church prior to the Reformation; later their followers led movements many miles apart from each other, which became a few Denominations. The closest a Reformed church has come to becoming a cult would be the followers of Harold Camping who is expecting the end of the world in May of 2011. Camping’s Reformed movement is opposed to the ‘Free Will’ position that has the marks of becoming a cult, but we must remember ‘Family Radio’ came out of a once great denomination taken over by self-willed liberals less than a 100 years ago and now ordains homosexuals to the ministry.


The point that the Apostle John is making in John 1:12 & 13 is that God is the One, through the Holy Spirit Who brings about spiritual birth, it is clearly not a decision made by men. The truth is those arguing for the concept of ‘Free Will’ are opposed to the idea that God only chooses a few people and possibly they having a different experience might not be chosen. It is the fear that they have entered the “sheep fold” without going through Jesus that they must redefine the door. This is exactly the point the Apostle Paul argues when he said, “Is there injustice on Gods part?” Romans 9:14 – 16, and what John says in John 1:12 & 13. John is making it clear when he says, “it is not of him that wills … but of God who shows mercy.” The phrase “not of him that wills” is just another way of saying; it is not “mans will,” in contrast to: the theological concept of ‘Free Will.’

Those arguing for the concept of ‘Free Will’ are also opposed to the idea that God is the one who initiates the work of salvation. This is what the argument of ‘Free Will’ is all about, its man believing he is responsible to procure his own salvation; that God is a perfect gentlemen who would not force His Will on anyone. This would be the context for Jesus statement in Matthew 11:7- 15 saying, “and from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.” Those not waiting for God to take the initiative in calling and convicting are trying to clear their own path to eternity. This is why Jesus questioned the multitudes that came out to hear Him, asking them why they went out to hear John the Baptist. The Holy Spirit moved a select group to the Jordon River to repent in preparation for Jesus coming. John the Baptist rebuked many who came out to hypocritically identify with Johns mission. So Jesus asked the multitude 3 times, “what went you out to see?” From this we are aware that Jesus knew the religious leaders were seeking their follower’s approval, not to receive John’s message. As for the masses, Jesus knew they followed Him to be fed, healed or to see the miracles He performed. The same is true for Christianity today, “from the days of John the Baptist until now.” This is exactly what the Greek “until now,” means, it’s ongoing up to the second you read this, thru to the consummation of the ages.

This means the self-will decisions people make toward God are no different than the pagans who pray to the deities they have created for themselves. Now I know you will argue, but I prayed to Jesus not some pagan god and I would agree, people do pray to Jesus and to the God of Jesus, like: the Mormons, the New Agers, the Moonies, the Children of God, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholic Cults in Central and South America. I’ve even spoke with Muslims who believed Jesus was a prophet, but the true Jesus of the Bible will not hear or answer their prayers! The point is Jesus will never know them or answer their prayers if they did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who prays in our behalf. Many think God hears the sinner seeking Him, but that is not in agreement with Romans 3:11, Psalm 14:2, 3 and Psalm 53:2 telling us, “there is none that seek after God,” which reveals to us that the natural man has no ability or desire to seek God with the correct motive; in contrast to those seeking God after He initiates the work of the Holy Spirit, causing their new birth.

I will also agree with you that corporate election (Israel) those God made promises to, proceeds the inner calling of God, through the conviction of the Holy Spirit, unto salvation. Again Molinism is just another way of saying that your diety is an advanced human, as says the Mormons. Molinism can not be reconciled to a 2-sided coin, like the two sides to the issue of the sovereignity of God and human accountability, since there can be no such animal as ‘middle knowledge’ to have anything in the middle turns two sides of one truth into truth and something else that is not truth. If you want to hold on to the concept of middle knowledge then you are saying you had something to do with your birth and your new birth and John said it was not “by the will of man, but (salvation is) of God,” John 1:13. Another passage showing the two sides can be seen in 2 Corinthians 8:5 that says, “This they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God.” Again we see the two sides, it was God’s will that they gave themsleves to the Lord, not of themselves. And of course Ephesians 2:8, “by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.” This clearly means the faith is not of yourselves, it comes with the new birth, the evidence of the indwelling Holy Spirit, which means salvation is God’s gift to some men and not all.

[mattrose]

PapaJ,

Accept for the Remonstrant’s all Orthodox Christians confessed that God initiated the work of salvation; a hundred and some years later this view was made popular again by the Methodist. The first denomination to affirm Arminianism, which was a new twist on the old Pelagian Heresy, we call semi-Pelagianism,

That is a misrepresentation of Arminianism. You claim that Arminians believe that man initiates their own salvation. That is false. It was not believed by Arminius, nor Wesley, nor any classical Arminian. This is a common myth held by many Calvinists (either willingly or ignorantly). I don't believe you are a Calvinist (I am pretty sure I remember you resisting that label), but it is still possible to be influenced by things that they say. I would recommend you read, if you haven't already, Roger Olson's book 'Arminian Theology: Myths and Realities' so that your information about Arminianism comes from the actual writings of Arminians rather than Calvinists.

God initiates salvation in Arminianism. God's grace precedes any response by man. Period.