I've posted this elsewhere, but I thought it would be interesting here as well. It seems odd to me that Jesus declared Mission Accomplished on this promise, yet it is central to Calvinist soteriology. Jesus promises in John 6 that he'll lose none. In John 17 he says he's accomplished the mission. In John 18 Jesus ties the fulfillment of this to the Disciples being physically spared:
John 6
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
John 17
12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
John 18
9 This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken: “Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one.”
Those promises were about the Disciples and the fact that they'd survive the earthly ministry of Jesus. I don't see why it has to be about salvation security or anything related to believers in our day (other than to generally make the point that God has the power to protect us). This is only one of several examples of a phrase used directly about the Disciples/Apostles that I think Calvinism has mistakenly flattened into a general principle of soteriology.
Doug
"I have lost not one" - Mission Accomplished?
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Re: "I have lost not one" - Mission Accomplished?
Good observation Doug. I tend to think the same thing. But I do think there's a flaw in Calvinist reasoning even if the following verse should be interpreted in the context of soteriology.
The very phrase "except the son of destruction" proves that it's possible for Jesus to lose one whom the Father gave. He says, in essence, " Father, I didn't lose any you gave me. Oh but I did lose Judas. I didn't lose anyone except that son of perdition". This could be interpreted like the Calvinist insists, but not necessarily. This verse could easily be a conditional security proof text depending on how you look at it. Jesus makes no mention that Judas wasn't one who was given to him, but seems to imply that he was given to him but that Judas failed to maintain his good standing.dwilkins wrote:John 17
12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Re: "I have lost not one" - Mission Accomplished?
I wasn't looking at it primarily as an issue of salvation security. I think it's more important as a statement on election. Calvinists tend to use this, the associated passage of the Father giving the followers to Christ, and Christ calling those followers as a part of their equation of salvation. I think it makes more sense simply as a statement that some OT believers (the Disciples) were prompted to follow Christ and that they wouldn't die during the course of his earthly ministry. In other words, Christ calling the Disciples doesn't have to be seen as a type of how all soteriology works. It was simply the function of how he formed his leadership team (just like Saul and David were called by a prophet, but this didn't establish their salvation or work as a template for how all OT salvation worked). Basically, the Calvinist tendency to flatten the narrative into a bunch of universal comments about soteriology ruins the point that's being made. They can't see it because they have very little appreciation for audience relevance.
Doug
Doug
Re: "I have lost not one" - Mission Accomplished?
Basically, the Calvinist tendency to flatten the narrative into a bunch of universal comments about soteriology ruins the point that's being made. They can't see it because they have very little appreciation for audience relevance.
Doug
Right that is what i think they do which is take limited specific examples of God intervening to accomplish his aim and Calvinists project this unto a universal principal of salvation.
They develop a presupposition and make their interpretation fit their model.
Doug
Right that is what i think they do which is take limited specific examples of God intervening to accomplish his aim and Calvinists project this unto a universal principal of salvation.
They develop a presupposition and make their interpretation fit their model.
Re: "I have lost not one" - Mission Accomplished?
Hello Doug,
I see your point, but while the last two passages could be easily understood like that without explanation, I'm not seeing how the John 6 one fits. I'm not a calvinist, so I don't read it like them, but would you explain why you think it only applies to the apostles' surviving the earthly ministry of Jesus?
I see your point, but while the last two passages could be easily understood like that without explanation, I'm not seeing how the John 6 one fits. I'm not a calvinist, so I don't read it like them, but would you explain why you think it only applies to the apostles' surviving the earthly ministry of Jesus?
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.
Re: "I have lost not one" - Mission Accomplished?
The basic point is this: Christ was putting together his leadership team during his ministry and passages that have to do with it have been spiritualized to apply to all believers in all times. This is typical of Evangelical (not just Calvinist) thought, where we want to make every Bible story about today and how it might apply to us. There might be some principles that more of less vaguely apply to us, but the more the point depends on the historical scenario the less this is true (surely we don't really think the point God has is that a real warrior would always, in every situation, run around like Gideon?). So, Christ begins to assemble his team by calling them to himself, saying "Follow Me!". Those team members aren't unbelievers (after all Nathaniel was a man in whom there was non deceit), but instead what we typically call OT believers. In other words, they already belonged to the Father.
John 6
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
In this case we have a group of people coming to Christ and wanting to be his followers (in fact to promote him to King) outside of the Father's timing. The majority of the crowd aren't actually believers in the Father. What becomes confusing in this is that as Christ is seemingly repeating himself he is talking about two different thing. First, that those who were given to him by the father will succeed and not be lost, and second that the goal of this mission is the establishment of his kingdom where everyone who looks on Christ will be saved (see below). In other words, vs. 39 and 40 show a progression of the plan, not a repetition of the same dynamic. This is basically repeated in vs. 43 through 51.
At the end of the passage we see that those Christ did not call left the story,
John 6
60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.
The calling of the 12 was integral to the earlier part of John 6. Jesus had pared down the group to those who were there to help him complete his mission on earth and who were going to found the church. It's important not to amputate the end of the chapter from the earlier part because it helps explain the scope of Christ's point.
Later, in John 12 we see this critical passage,
John 12
31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die. 34 So the crowd answered him, “We have heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?” 35 So Jesus said to them, “The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.”
Calvinists have had the hardest time explaining v.32 because on the one hand only some are drawn and on the other hand we see all drawn. How can we fix this? The simple answer is that in John 12 he is introducing the new paradigm that will be true after his is raised up (crucified, raised up like the bronze snake). It wasn't his mission up to that point to draw everyone and heal everyone. It was his mission to introduce himself incrementally and to train up a cadre who would lead the church after he left. Maybe the problem is that we sometimes fail to see the booting up process that is the ministry of Christ. Just like the Father used Abraham to boot up his offensive to break into the world, Christ is doing that in this next major chapter of the story. Early in the story Christ only drew certain people to himself. In the next chapter of the story he calls all men to himself.
The next section is a longer version of the high priestly prayer than I put in the original post,
John 17
10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.[a] 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself,[c] that they also may be sanctified[d] in truth.
This might come as shocking news to some Evangelicals, but this prayer is not primarily about you. Sorry. It's about Christ and his prayer for his Disciples. It includes some thought on those the Disciples are able to evangelize, but it is primarily direct towards them. Christ says of the 12 Disciples (he might have had the 70 in mind to some extent but doesn't articulate it) that he has in fact not lost one of them, other than Judas, just as was predicted by scripture. He is declaring that he has accomplished that portion of his mission.
John 18
3 So Judas, having procured a band of soldiers and some officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, went there with lanterns and torches and weapons. 4 Then Jesus, knowing all that would happen to him, came forward and said to them, “Whom do you seek?” 5 They answered him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I am he.”[a] Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them. 6 When Jesus said to them, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground. 7 So he asked them again, “Whom do you seek?” And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.” 8 Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. So, if you seek me, let these men go.” 9 This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken: “Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one.” 10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant[c] and cut off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.) 11 So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into its sheath; shall I not drink the cup that the Father has given me?”
In this section it is explicitly declared that the definition of not losing one of them was their physical safety. Eventually, they would all die (all but Judas as martyrs). Would we say that he eventually failed and lost every single one of them? No, because the promise had a limited scope.
If I get the time today you can see a very similar dynamic between the commissioning of the Disciples in Matthew and the elements of that commissioning that are fulfilled throughout scripture.
Doug
John 6
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
In this case we have a group of people coming to Christ and wanting to be his followers (in fact to promote him to King) outside of the Father's timing. The majority of the crowd aren't actually believers in the Father. What becomes confusing in this is that as Christ is seemingly repeating himself he is talking about two different thing. First, that those who were given to him by the father will succeed and not be lost, and second that the goal of this mission is the establishment of his kingdom where everyone who looks on Christ will be saved (see below). In other words, vs. 39 and 40 show a progression of the plan, not a repetition of the same dynamic. This is basically repeated in vs. 43 through 51.
At the end of the passage we see that those Christ did not call left the story,
John 6
60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.
The calling of the 12 was integral to the earlier part of John 6. Jesus had pared down the group to those who were there to help him complete his mission on earth and who were going to found the church. It's important not to amputate the end of the chapter from the earlier part because it helps explain the scope of Christ's point.
Later, in John 12 we see this critical passage,
John 12
31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die. 34 So the crowd answered him, “We have heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?” 35 So Jesus said to them, “The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.”
Calvinists have had the hardest time explaining v.32 because on the one hand only some are drawn and on the other hand we see all drawn. How can we fix this? The simple answer is that in John 12 he is introducing the new paradigm that will be true after his is raised up (crucified, raised up like the bronze snake). It wasn't his mission up to that point to draw everyone and heal everyone. It was his mission to introduce himself incrementally and to train up a cadre who would lead the church after he left. Maybe the problem is that we sometimes fail to see the booting up process that is the ministry of Christ. Just like the Father used Abraham to boot up his offensive to break into the world, Christ is doing that in this next major chapter of the story. Early in the story Christ only drew certain people to himself. In the next chapter of the story he calls all men to himself.
The next section is a longer version of the high priestly prayer than I put in the original post,
John 17
10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.[a] 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself,[c] that they also may be sanctified[d] in truth.
This might come as shocking news to some Evangelicals, but this prayer is not primarily about you. Sorry. It's about Christ and his prayer for his Disciples. It includes some thought on those the Disciples are able to evangelize, but it is primarily direct towards them. Christ says of the 12 Disciples (he might have had the 70 in mind to some extent but doesn't articulate it) that he has in fact not lost one of them, other than Judas, just as was predicted by scripture. He is declaring that he has accomplished that portion of his mission.
John 18
3 So Judas, having procured a band of soldiers and some officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, went there with lanterns and torches and weapons. 4 Then Jesus, knowing all that would happen to him, came forward and said to them, “Whom do you seek?” 5 They answered him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I am he.”[a] Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them. 6 When Jesus said to them, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground. 7 So he asked them again, “Whom do you seek?” And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.” 8 Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. So, if you seek me, let these men go.” 9 This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken: “Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one.” 10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant[c] and cut off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.) 11 So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into its sheath; shall I not drink the cup that the Father has given me?”
In this section it is explicitly declared that the definition of not losing one of them was their physical safety. Eventually, they would all die (all but Judas as martyrs). Would we say that he eventually failed and lost every single one of them? No, because the promise had a limited scope.
If I get the time today you can see a very similar dynamic between the commissioning of the Disciples in Matthew and the elements of that commissioning that are fulfilled throughout scripture.
Doug