Gentlemen, note the following:
Ecc 3:14-15 I know that whatever God doeth, it shall be for ever; there is nothing to be added to it, nor anything to be taken from it; and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. That which is - was long ago, and that which is to be - hath already been; and God bringeth back again that which is past.
Here God tells us that all He does was set perfectly from eternity. He then shares with us that He summons these things into our TIME EXISTENCE. It has already been accomplish on His end and then He summons it into our unfolding time. So what does this mean to you? Can you accept this or not? The fear of the Lord is indeed the beginning of wisdom, so does this knowledge of scripture bring the fear of God before us?
This is a principle established by God, so how can we reconcile this with other passages that seem to suggest otherwise?
Open Theism and Determinism
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kenblogton
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism
Reply to Jenpe & Paidion
Ken, are you saying that all 12 apostles tell us that? Would you quote a few of the verses where at least some of the apostles tell us Christ came to redeem us from the penalty for sin.
See Matthew 20:28, Mark 10:45, Luke 2:38, John 3:16, 1 John 3:16, 1 Peter 1:18-19, Ephesians 1:3-7 (Paul), Hebrew 9:12 (Apollos or Barnabas); Acts 2:38-39 (Peter as spokesman for all the apostles together at Pentecost).
Ken, the angel said to Joseph in a dream concerning his wife Mary:
She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” (Matt 1:21)
The angel did NOT say, "... for he will save his people from the penalty for their sins.
Christ can't change anything that has already been done, like sinful actions, because they are already done - in the past. What He has done is removed the consequences - paid the price - for those sins. See Hebrews 9:14-15, 28.
kenblogton
Ken, are you saying that all 12 apostles tell us that? Would you quote a few of the verses where at least some of the apostles tell us Christ came to redeem us from the penalty for sin.
See Matthew 20:28, Mark 10:45, Luke 2:38, John 3:16, 1 John 3:16, 1 Peter 1:18-19, Ephesians 1:3-7 (Paul), Hebrew 9:12 (Apollos or Barnabas); Acts 2:38-39 (Peter as spokesman for all the apostles together at Pentecost).
Ken, the angel said to Joseph in a dream concerning his wife Mary:
She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” (Matt 1:21)
The angel did NOT say, "... for he will save his people from the penalty for their sins.
Christ can't change anything that has already been done, like sinful actions, because they are already done - in the past. What He has done is removed the consequences - paid the price - for those sins. See Hebrews 9:14-15, 28.
kenblogton
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kenblogton
- Posts: 147
- Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:39 pm
- Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada
Re: Open Theism and Determinism
Reply to robbyyoung
Gentlemen, note the following:
Ecc 3:14-15 I know that whatever God doeth, it shall be for ever; there is nothing to be added to it, nor anything to be taken from it; and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. That which is - was long ago, and that which is to be - hath already been; and God bringeth back again that which is past.
Here God tells us that all He does was set perfectly from eternity. He then shares with us that He summons these things into our TIME EXISTENCE. It has already been accomplish on His end and then He summons it into our unfolding time. So what does this mean to you? Can you accept this or not? The fear of the Lord is indeed the beginning of wisdom, so does this knowledge of scripture bring the fear of God before us?
This is a principle established by God, so how can we reconcile this with other passages that seem to suggest otherwise?
The misunderstanding inherent in what you say is that it implies God knows the one thing that will happen throughout eternity. What God knows is all the possible action choices of His free will creatures throughout eternity, which makes Him a much more complex God.
kenblogton
Gentlemen, note the following:
Ecc 3:14-15 I know that whatever God doeth, it shall be for ever; there is nothing to be added to it, nor anything to be taken from it; and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. That which is - was long ago, and that which is to be - hath already been; and God bringeth back again that which is past.
Here God tells us that all He does was set perfectly from eternity. He then shares with us that He summons these things into our TIME EXISTENCE. It has already been accomplish on His end and then He summons it into our unfolding time. So what does this mean to you? Can you accept this or not? The fear of the Lord is indeed the beginning of wisdom, so does this knowledge of scripture bring the fear of God before us?
This is a principle established by God, so how can we reconcile this with other passages that seem to suggest otherwise?
The misunderstanding inherent in what you say is that it implies God knows the one thing that will happen throughout eternity. What God knows is all the possible action choices of His free will creatures throughout eternity, which makes Him a much more complex God.
kenblogton
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robbyyoung
- Posts: 811
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:23 am
Re: Open Theism and Determinism
Ken, your presupposition is glaringly obvious and it has no basis concerning the purpose of the text. How emphatic can God be? This has nothing to do whatsoever about God yielding to man decisions. The text clearly says:kenblogton wrote: The misunderstanding inherent in what you say is that it implies God knows the one thing that will happen throughout eternity. What God knows is all the possible action choices of His free will creatures throughout eternity, which makes Him a much more complex God.
kenblogton
"I know that whatever God doeth…"
and then goes on to say it's was established forever, and that which is present or future ISN"T NEW AT ALL
but GOD already established it in eternity past.
Now here's the most exciting finale:
Since ALL THAT GOD DOES is in the PAST,
God simply calls it BACK INTO OUR PRESENT EXISTENCE! Nothing was added or taken away REMAINS THE CONSTANT.
Whatever role man plays in what God HAS DONE is not the point of the passage.
The point of the passage is, "I know that whatever God doeth, it shall be for ever; there is nothing to be added to it, nor anything to be taken from it; and God doeth it, that men should fear before him."
God Bless!
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kenblogton
- Posts: 147
- Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:39 pm
- Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada
Re: Open Theism and Determinism
Reply to robbyyoung
Ken, your presupposition is glaringly obvious and it has no basis concerning the purpose of the text. How emphatic can God be? This has nothing to do whatsoever about God yielding to man decisions. The text clearly says:
"I know that whatever God doeth…"
and then goes on to say it's was established forever, and that which is present or future ISN"T NEW AT ALL
but GOD already established it in eternity past.
Now here's the most exciting finale:
Since ALL THAT GOD DOES is in the PAST,
God simply calls it BACK INTO OUR PRESENT EXISTENCE! Nothing was added or taken away REMAINS THE CONSTANT.
Whatever role man plays in what God HAS DONE is not the point of the passage.
The point of the passage is, "I know that whatever God doeth, it shall be for ever; there is nothing to be added to it, nor anything to be taken from it; and God doeth it, that men should fear before him."
Thanks for your reply. One of the things I've learned over the years about Scripture interpretation is that to have confidence in an interpretation, all - or at least a representative sample - of related Scriptures must be reflected in the interpretation. Ecclesiastes 3:14-15 in the NIV(with my comments added) is "I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere him. (If what God does is ordain possibilities, the fact of those ordained possibilities will endure forever.)
Whatever is has already been, and what will be has been before; and God will call the past to account." (The first part is part of Solomon's there is nothing new under the sun and the second part reminds us that we are held accountable for our past actions.)
Now I'll comment on your interpretation. God yielding to man decisions God does not yield to man's decisions; rather, God makes these decisions available to man.
Since ALL THAT GOD DOES is in the PAST Past, present and future are all time-based human realities. God's existence is entirely in the eternal present; His name tells us this: I AM (Exodus 3:14); theologians call this God's immanence. From before the Big Bang, God decrees and sees all of time from beginning to end. The past you refer to is our past, not God's - who has NO past! I tell you this based on Scripture; I have NO INTUITIVE UNDERSTANDING of what it means to have no past or future.
kenblogton
Ken, your presupposition is glaringly obvious and it has no basis concerning the purpose of the text. How emphatic can God be? This has nothing to do whatsoever about God yielding to man decisions. The text clearly says:
"I know that whatever God doeth…"
and then goes on to say it's was established forever, and that which is present or future ISN"T NEW AT ALL
but GOD already established it in eternity past.
Now here's the most exciting finale:
Since ALL THAT GOD DOES is in the PAST,
God simply calls it BACK INTO OUR PRESENT EXISTENCE! Nothing was added or taken away REMAINS THE CONSTANT.
Whatever role man plays in what God HAS DONE is not the point of the passage.
The point of the passage is, "I know that whatever God doeth, it shall be for ever; there is nothing to be added to it, nor anything to be taken from it; and God doeth it, that men should fear before him."
Thanks for your reply. One of the things I've learned over the years about Scripture interpretation is that to have confidence in an interpretation, all - or at least a representative sample - of related Scriptures must be reflected in the interpretation. Ecclesiastes 3:14-15 in the NIV(with my comments added) is "I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere him. (If what God does is ordain possibilities, the fact of those ordained possibilities will endure forever.)
Whatever is has already been, and what will be has been before; and God will call the past to account." (The first part is part of Solomon's there is nothing new under the sun and the second part reminds us that we are held accountable for our past actions.)
Now I'll comment on your interpretation. God yielding to man decisions God does not yield to man's decisions; rather, God makes these decisions available to man.
Since ALL THAT GOD DOES is in the PAST Past, present and future are all time-based human realities. God's existence is entirely in the eternal present; His name tells us this: I AM (Exodus 3:14); theologians call this God's immanence. From before the Big Bang, God decrees and sees all of time from beginning to end. The past you refer to is our past, not God's - who has NO past! I tell you this based on Scripture; I have NO INTUITIVE UNDERSTANDING of what it means to have no past or future.
kenblogton
Re: Open Theism and Determinism
Ken, I looked up all the scriptural references you provided. Not ONE of them tell us that Christ came to redeem us from the penalty of sin.
If you think any of them do, please explain.
If you think any of them do, please explain.
Re: Open Theism and Determinism
Reply to steve7150
Did Peter say "contingent on human sin"?
What does foreordained mean to you?
Peter did not say contingent on human sin. But all the apostles tell us Christ came to redeem us from the penalty for sin; if we had not sinned, the need would not have been there.
Foreordained means decreed by God.
kenblogton
Ken,
According to dictionary.com "decreed" means
a formal and authoritative order. So God decreed or gave a formal order regarding the shed blood of Christ before the foundation of the world. There simply is no room for an "if" or a contingency.
A definition for "decreed" they give pertaining to God is "one of the eternal purposes of God" Eternal purposes also mean before the foundation of the world and since it's one of the "purposes" of God there is no room for contingencies.
Did Peter say "contingent on human sin"?
What does foreordained mean to you?
Peter did not say contingent on human sin. But all the apostles tell us Christ came to redeem us from the penalty for sin; if we had not sinned, the need would not have been there.
Foreordained means decreed by God.
kenblogton
Ken,
According to dictionary.com "decreed" means
a formal and authoritative order. So God decreed or gave a formal order regarding the shed blood of Christ before the foundation of the world. There simply is no room for an "if" or a contingency.
A definition for "decreed" they give pertaining to God is "one of the eternal purposes of God" Eternal purposes also mean before the foundation of the world and since it's one of the "purposes" of God there is no room for contingencies.
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robbyyoung
- Posts: 811
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:23 am
Re: Open Theism and Determinism
Ken, you are making stuff up! God isn't ordaining possibilities AT ALL. He, IN FACT, accomplished all His purposes! What part of it's over and done are you not understanding? You are making things up based on what you want to be true.kenblogton wrote:(If what God does is ordain possibilities, the fact of those ordained possibilities will endure forever.)
Whatever is has already been, and what will be has been before; and God will call the past to account." (The first part is part of Solomon's there is nothing new under the sun and the second part reminds us that we are held accountable for our past actions.)
Again, Ecc 3:14-15 has nothing to do with what you are talking about. You want it to, but it doesn't. I'll remind you again: Whatever role man plays in what God HAS DONE is not the point of the passage. The point of the passage is, "I know that whatever God doeth, it shall be for ever; there is nothing to be added to it, nor anything to be taken from it; and God doeth it, that men should fear before him."kenblogton wrote:Now I'll comment on your interpretation. God yielding to man decisions God does not yield to man's decisions; rather, God makes these decisions available to man.
I have no idea what you are getting at here. Your gymnastics around vs.14-15 seem to have you all over the place. Prima Facie my dear brother. The text is crystal clear and what you are doing is clear Eisegesis.kenblogton wrote:Since ALL THAT GOD DOES is in the PAST Past, present and future are all time-based human realities. God's existence is entirely in the eternal present; His name tells us this: I AM (Exodus 3:14); theologians call this God's immanence. From before the Big Bang, God decrees and sees all of time from beginning to end. The past you refer to is our past, not God's - who has NO past! I tell you this based on Scripture; I have NO INTUITIVE UNDERSTANDING of what it means to have no past or future.
kenblogton
God Bless!
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kenblogton
- Posts: 147
- Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:39 pm
- Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada
Re: Open Theism and Determinism
Reply to Jenpe
Ken, I looked up all the scriptural references you provided. Not ONE of them tell us that Christ came to redeem us from the penalty of sin.
If you think any of them do, please explain.
Here's a definition of redemption from the internet dictionary "the action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil."
Here's the verses I gave you before with the redemption underlined: Matthew 20:28 (just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.), Mark 10:45 ( For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.), Luke 2:38 (Coming up to them at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem.), John 3:16 (For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.), 1 John 3:16 (This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.), 1 Peter 1:18-19 (For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.), Ephesians 1:3-7 (Paul tells us Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace), Hebrew 9:12 (Apollos or Barnabas tell us He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.); Acts 2:38-39 (Peter as spokesman for all the apostles together at Pentecost is quoted as saying Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call.").
kenblogton
Ken, I looked up all the scriptural references you provided. Not ONE of them tell us that Christ came to redeem us from the penalty of sin.
If you think any of them do, please explain.
Here's a definition of redemption from the internet dictionary "the action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil."
Here's the verses I gave you before with the redemption underlined: Matthew 20:28 (just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.), Mark 10:45 ( For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.), Luke 2:38 (Coming up to them at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem.), John 3:16 (For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.), 1 John 3:16 (This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.), 1 Peter 1:18-19 (For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.), Ephesians 1:3-7 (Paul tells us Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace), Hebrew 9:12 (Apollos or Barnabas tell us He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.); Acts 2:38-39 (Peter as spokesman for all the apostles together at Pentecost is quoted as saying Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call.").
kenblogton
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kenblogton
- Posts: 147
- Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:39 pm
- Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada
Re: Open Theism and Determinism
Reply to steve7150
According to dictionary.com "decreed" means a formal and authoritative order. So God decreed or gave a formal order regarding the shed blood of Christ before the foundation of the world. There simply is no room for an "if" or a contingency.
A definition for "decreed" they give pertaining to God is "one of the eternal purposes of God" Eternal purposes also mean before the foundation of the world and since it's one of the "purposes" of God there is no room for contingencies.
In the Torah, God decrees that the Promised Land: Israel is for the descendants of Abraham, but it is a conditional promise: valid as long as they abide by the terms of their covenant with Him. Since God is immanent: always now, this promise was also made before the foundation of the world. It is no difference with the decree regarding Christ. If mankind sins, He comes. Why would Christ come if mankind didn't sin? Another conditional promise - formal and authoritative but conditional.
kenblogton
According to dictionary.com "decreed" means a formal and authoritative order. So God decreed or gave a formal order regarding the shed blood of Christ before the foundation of the world. There simply is no room for an "if" or a contingency.
A definition for "decreed" they give pertaining to God is "one of the eternal purposes of God" Eternal purposes also mean before the foundation of the world and since it's one of the "purposes" of God there is no room for contingencies.
In the Torah, God decrees that the Promised Land: Israel is for the descendants of Abraham, but it is a conditional promise: valid as long as they abide by the terms of their covenant with Him. Since God is immanent: always now, this promise was also made before the foundation of the world. It is no difference with the decree regarding Christ. If mankind sins, He comes. Why would Christ come if mankind didn't sin? Another conditional promise - formal and authoritative but conditional.
kenblogton