Calvinist comments on the warning passages in Hebrews.

[brody196]

I was listening to "The dividing line" broadcast over at aomin.org and heard James White say the following regarding the warning passages from Hebrews..http://www.aomin.org/podcasts/20130815.mp3..(Scroll over to about 1:32:00 to hear the conversation). In short, he basically says that the warnings serve two functions: The first is to warn believers to take their faith seriously and the second is to heap more judgment on the unbeliever.

With all due respect to James, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. First off, why would you warn anyone of something that has no possibility of happening? Suppose I called TNP broadcast and warned Steve that the boogeyman was coming for him, would he take me seriously? Probably not...The second "function" that James mentions is even more absurd to me. How would a warning about falling away from a position in Christ that you were never in to begin with, heap more judgment on a sinner?

I imagine that James would argue that these "warnings" are a means of keeping the believer in check, but wouldn't the force of these passages be diminished by the tenets of Calvinism?

Your thoughts?

[Paidion]

Here is my thought:

The contradictions of Calvinism are interminable.

[SteveF]

interminable

I just learned a new word!

[CThomas]

I'm not sure I see the problem, Brody. You yourself flag what I think one of the Calvinist points is. God decrees the means as well as the ends. So biblical warnings such as these are part of the mechanisms by which God chooses to effect some of His decrees.

CThomas

[brody196]

I'm not sure I see the problem, Brody. You yourself flag what I think one of the Calvinist points is. God decrees the means as well as the ends. So biblical warnings such as these are part of the mechanisms by which God chooses to effect some of His decrees.

CThomas

Hi Thomas,

If God has decreed that an individual would become a false convert, what good would a warning do for that person? Is there any conceivable benefit that can come from such a warning, if that warning was never genuine in any real sense?

To my mind, the Calvinist position forces a Christian to assume that when God says one thing, that He really means something entirely different. I just can't see it any other way.

[CThomas]

I certainly don't want to downplay the degree to which Hebrews presents challenges for the Calvinist perspective. It seems to me that parts of Hebrews, particularly the "falling away" parts, are real issues for Calvinism. But I don't see how a warning that if you do x then y will happen is dishonest simply because an individual's decision whether to do x is determined by God's decree. It is still true that if you do x then y will happen. Since we cannot know God's decrees except as they are revealed to us it makes sense for us to worry about whether we are among the redeemed and to make sure we redouble our efforts to stay in the faith. And it makes sense that God may decree exactly that kind of warning and effort-redoubling as the method by which His people do in fact stay in the faith. So I do think it's a genuine warning, as it (1) serves the purpose of telling everyone God's standards for judging conduct and (2) can be a mechanism for retaining the faith of His people.

CThomas

[brody196]

I certainly don't want to downplay the degree to which Hebrews presents challenges for the Calvinist perspective. It seems to me that parts of Hebrews, particularly the "falling away" parts, are real issues for Calvinism. But I don't see how a warning that if you do x then y will happen is dishonest simply because an individual's decision whether to do x is determined by God's decree.

I would never charge God with dishonesty, so that isn't even an issue. What I do take issue with is the Calvinist assertions regarding these warnings. If the writer of Hebrews held Calvinist presuppositions, he certainly did not show it, as he seems to have implied that there was a genuine choice to do one thing or the other. For example: Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it... again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts."..Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience....(Hebrews 4: 1,7,11)

It is still true that if you do x then y will happen. Since we cannot know God's decrees except as they are revealed to us it makes sense for us to worry about whether we are among the redeemed and to make sure we redouble our efforts to stay in the faith.

Do you seriously "worry about whether you are among the redeemed"? It is these kinda things that make the Calvinist system seem so distant from biblical norms. Jesus and the Apostles taught that we can have assurance of our salvation(John 10:28-1 John 5:13-1 Peter 1:13).

And it makes sense that God may decree exactly that kind of warning and effort-redoubling as the method by which His people do in fact stay in the faith. So I do think it's a genuine warning, as it (1) serves the purpose of telling everyone God's standards for judging conduct and (2) can be a mechanism for retaining the faith of His people.

Could you provide any references from Hebrews that support this assertion? Namely, that God uses the warnings in the manner that you are describing.

[Paidion]

Since we cannot know God's decrees except as they are revealed to us it makes sense for us to worry about whether we are among the redeemed and to make sure we redouble our efforts to stay in the faith.

How will it help to redouble our efforts, if God has decreed that we will leave the faith permanently? Our efforts would be of no avail.

[paulespino]

Cthomas wrote:

And it makes sense that God may decree exactly that kind of warning and effort-redoubling as the method by which His people do in fact stay in the faith. So I do think it's a genuine warning, as it (1) serves the purpose of telling everyone God's standards for judging conduct and (2) can be a mechanism for retaining the faith of His people.

I'm sorry but somehow it does not makes sense to me that a person who is already predestined to be saved can loose their faith in Christ. Nothing or no one can change their destiny.

If they have been predestined they will retain their faith even without a warning.