Assessing the Necessity of Open Theism 2

[mattrose]

The assumption I make that time begins at Creation is, I believe, much less huge than your assumption that there was time before that. Creation is creation of space, time, matter & energy. On what do you base your assumption? Even you say it is a "could have been." In Alister McGrath’s article (McGrath, A. 2009. “Augustine’s Origin of Species.” Christianity Today, May, 38-41.), he says “For Augustine, eternity is a realm without space or time. Interestingly, this is precisely the state of existence many scientists posit existed before the big bang.” (40).
kenblogton

I freely admitted the whole time that my position was a guess

You are the one stating your guess as if it is fact.

I don't think the Bible addresses the subject of whether time is a created entity or not. We are left to our own reason, here, and I think it makes more sense that the Trinity experienced relationship in the context of some sort of time. The fact that this seems like a common sense sort of view is even more attractive when I consider the number of theological hurdles that I no longer have to jump over b/c I stop insisting on things the Bible doesn't declare in the first place.

[Paidion]

Creation is creation of space, time, matter & energy.

Matter and its equivalent—energy, yes. But space and time are quite another matter. I see both of these two are simply measurements, and measurements don't need to be created; they are automatically presesnt when matter and energy have been created.

I see space as the distance between two objects. Before there were any objects, there was no space. Space was the consequent of the creation of the first two objects.

I see time as the temporal "distance" between the occurence of two events. Without any events there is no time. Time was the consequent of the occurence of the first two events. We cannot meaningully speak of "before the beginning of time" since that very word "before" is a temporal word. There is not an infinite regression of time into the past. Time had an actual beginning after the second event. I could tell you what I believe to be the first event, but that's another discussion.

[kenblogton]

Reply to mattrose and Paidion
Genesis 1:1, John 1:3, Colossians 1:16 all speak of Creation. None explicitly mentions space, time, matter or energy, yet even the early theologians, such as Augustine, accepted that space and time were created. And 1 Corinthians 15:46 differentiates the physical from the spiritual human body. That space, time, matter & energy began at the big bang is generally accepted by scientists.
Your difficulty, like mine, I believe, is that neither you nor I have any intuitive notion of what a world without space or time is like; I understand the concept theoretically, not intuitively. Our natural, and I believe incorrect, fallback position is anthropomorphism: let's imagine a space-time God who feels emotions and has arms and legs - we can better relate to such a God - but that does NOT make it TRUE!
kenblogton

[mattrose]

Reply to mattrose and Paidion
Genesis 1:1, John 1:3, Colossians 1:16 all speak of Creation. None explicitly mentions space, time, matter or energy, yet even the early theologians, such as Augustine, accepted that space and time were created. And 1 Corinthians 15:46 differentiates the physical from the spiritual human body. That space, time, matter & energy began at the big bang is generally accepted by scientists.
Your difficulty, like mine, I believe, is that neither you nor I have any intuitive notion of what a world without space or time is like; I understand the concept theoretically, not intuitively. Our natural, and I believe incorrect, fallback position is anthropomorphism: let's imagine a space-time God who feels emotions and has arms and legs - we can better relate to such a God - but that does NOT make it TRUE!
kenblogton

So you admit that the passages you quote don't mention what you're talking about... but we should believe what you say anyways b/c Augustine said it too? Just so you know, for future reference... the 'Augustine said it' argument doesn't go over to well with me. To be blunt, I believe that Augustine has done almost as much damage to the Christian faith as any theologian in the history of the world.

But in the end, I don't really care if you believe God exists outside of time and doesn't experience any changes in his emotions. I don't think your position makes much sense, but the most important thing in life is not to impress message board strangers I'm willing to keep explaining to you why I think you're mistaken... and listening to why you think I am... but it definitely seems like we're going in circles at this point, eh?

[kenblogton]

Reply to mattrose
I doubt if the Bible writers or their original audience would have truly understood the concepts of space, time, matter & energy as we do today.
It was Einstein in the 20th century who told us matter & energy were alternate forms of the same thing and that time & space were related. At http://www.nature.com/news/theoretical- ... me-1.13613, it says "Many researchers believe that physics will not be complete until it can explain not just the behaviour of space and time, but where these entities come from." The clear implication is that scientists generally believe that not only matter and energy began at the big bang, but also space and time.
Believing in the creation of space, time, matter & energy allows me to believe in God as Creator of ALL aspects of the physical universe, not just matter & energy.
I'm also confident that those in heaven could care less about these things - their faith is sight!
Blessings kenblogton

[Singalphile]

Hi, kenblogton.

I just have a few minutes (or I'll be late). Several times, here and in the other threads, I think, you say things such as, "all our possible choices from the creation," "God foreordains all possible choices for every human at Creation," and the like.

What is reason for qualifying these types of statements with "since the creation" or "at creation"?

Thanks in advance, again!

[Paidion]

The clear implication is that scientists generally believe that not only matter and energy began at the big bang, but also space and time.

Of course, "space" began when matter began, and "time" began when energy began. But that fact does not imply that space and time are entities which require creation such as matter and energy do.
Space may be nothing more than a measurement of the distance between two particles as I have suggested. Time may be nothing more than the measurement of the temporal distance between the occurrence of two events as I have suggested. For that reason space and time don't require a separate creation. They simply exist on the basis that matter and energy exist.

Let me give you a little analogy. If in geometry, at the instruction of your teacher, you construct an equilateral triangle, you find that at the same time you have constructed an equiangular triangle. You don't say to yourself, "Where did that equiangular triangle come from? Did I construct that? The teacher asked me only to construct an equilateral triangle." No. Constructing the equilateral triangle necessitated the construction of the equiangular triangle (the same construction). You cannot construct the former without the latter.

The same with matter and energy. The creation of matter necessitates the existence of space since space is but a measurement of the distance between particles, and the creation of energy necessitates the existence of time, since time is but the temporal "distance" between the occurence of two events (brought about by energy).

[kenblogton]

Reply to Singalphile

What is reason for qualifying these types of statements with "since the creation" or "at creation"?

I use those qualifiers to make the point that, because God is immutable, He has always known all our possible choices; there is no new possibility that has arisen since Creation.
kenblogton

[kenblogton]

Reply to Paidion

"space" began when matter began, and "time" began when energy began.

I don't understand how you can say that space, time, matter & energy all began at the same time, but that only matter & energy were created by God.
The birth or origin of things is their moment of creation. Whatever time & space are, they originated at the big bang - their creation bang.
kenblogton

[Singalphile]

I use those qualifiers to make the point that, because God is immutable, He has always known all our possible choices; there is no new possibility that has arisen since Creation.
kenblogton

You put "since Creation" on the end of that sentence. If I were to remove "since Creation" from that sentence, would it cease to be a true sentence? The implication of your sentence is that new possibilities did arise before "Creation."

If I were to guess, I'd say that you add this "since creation" qualifier in order to limit all of this speculation solely to God's dealings with us (humanity). You don't want to speculate about God before He created our universe (or since you think that time is a created thing that He created when He created our universe, you don't think there was anything "before" then). That's how I'm understanding you, rightly or wrongly.

Space may be nothing more than a measurement of the distance between two particles as I have suggested. Time may be nothing more than the measurement of the temporal distance between the occurrence of two events as I have suggested.

So you're basically saying that space is the absence of particles and time is the absence of events. So once there is an event - a thought, activity, awareness, etc. - then time is merely a consequence. So time and space aren't things in and of themselves. That makes some sense to me.

Anyway, I like this type of discussion too, but I think I've had my fill for the time being. Ya'll have a good week.