Assessing the Necessity of Open Theism 2

[Paidion]

Does that mean that that set of things, whatever they are, are inevitable — that God will never change His mind about them, no matter what choices anyone makes?

That may be correct, Matt. I have been trying to think of examples. Would the eschatological coming of Christ belong to that set? The reconciliation of all people to God? (In that God will never give up until all are reconciled of their own free will).

[mattrose]

Does that mean that that set of things, whatever they are, are inevitable — that God will never change His mind about them, no matter what choices anyone makes?

That may be correct, Matt. I have been trying to think of examples. Would the eschatological coming of Christ belong to that set? The reconciliation of all people to God? (In that God will never give up until all are reconciled of their own free will).

I had in mind the 2nd Coming. Not that the timing of it is necessarily fixed, but the eventuality of it is. I suppose there could be other things in this category, though I cannot think of what they might be at the moment.

[kenblogton]

Reply to mattrose September 14, post #1.

It may be that you still disagree with open theism about the existence of the future (perhaps you believe God exists outside of time),

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I believe God does exist outside of time: God does not exist in space or time and consists neither of matter or energy - space, time, matter and energy came into existence at creation. Since God created time, it makes no sense to me to say that He is part of time, or exists in space, and consists either of matter or energy - just as it makes no sense to say the creator of anything is part of the thing created; the Creator is separate from the created.
kenblogton

[mattrose]

I believe God does exist outside of time: God does not exist in space or time and consists neither of matter or energy - space, time, matter and energy came into existence at creation. Since God created time, it makes no sense to me to say that He is part of time, or exists in space, and consists either of matter or energy - just as it makes no sense to say the creator of anything is part of the thing created; the Creator is separate from the created.
kenblogton

You are, of course, free to believe God exists outside of time. I just don't see this, really, as a biblical belief (or an un-biblical one for that matter). I think it is more of a philosophical belief.

I do not believe God exists outside of time. I am not sure time is a created thing. I have no way of comprehending God's existence 'before' time. In fact, to suggest that there was no such thing as time seems like an absurd thing to believe. Do you believe in the Trinity? Did the Father, Son & Spirit relate to each other before the creation of time in your view? How could this relationship not involve time in any sense of the word?

In saying that God exists within time, I am not saying that God is part of creation! I agree with you that the Creator is separate from the created. He is above creation and involved in creation.

[kenblogton]

Reply to mattrose
When people experience emotion, it changes them. If we’re angry, fearful, or sad, we’re different – changed – from when we’re calm and at peace or in some other emotional state. That being said, let’s now consider the Old Testament passages that speak of “God’s anger” in the context of God “never changing” (Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Psalm 110:4; Malachi 3:6; James 1:17). We can humanize God, and allow that He changes, or we can affirm His always being the same and accept that the Scripture writers also anthropomorphized God. Malachi 3:6 says unqualifiedly that God does not change. Emotional change IS CHANGE - and God can have NONE of it!
Time came into existence at the "big bang." Does this mean God is 13.7 billion years old? How can God predate time and then suddenly become a part of it?

I do not believe God exists outside of time.

. Time is the defining characteristic of change. All change occurs in time and therefore implies a beginning time 0, which was 13.7 billion years according to scientists' best estimates. Clearly God MUST predate time.
kenblogton

[mattrose]

Reply to mattrose
When people experience emotion, it changes them. If we’re angry, fearful, or sad, we’re different – changed – from when we’re calm and at peace or in some other emotional state. That being said, let’s now consider the Old Testament passages that speak of “God’s anger” in the context of God “never changing” (Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Psalm 110:4; Malachi 3:6; James 1:17). We can humanize God, and allow that He changes, or we can affirm His always being the same and accept that the Scripture writers also anthropomorphized God. Malachi 3:6 says unqualifiedly that God does not change. Emotional change IS CHANGE - and God can have NONE of it!

See my reply to your first thread. It is a false analogy to compare how our emotions impact our character transformation to God and change. God is a perfect character. His emotions are perfectly appropriate in every situation. Toward a given creature, he is pleased at just the right moments and displeased at just the right moments. He is jealous when appropriate and not jealous when not appropriate.

Emotional change plays a role in character formation for creatures, but God is not a creature. His emotions flow out of a perfect character.

Time came into existence at the "big bang." Does this mean God is 13.7 billion years old? How can God predate time and then suddenly become a part of it?

I do not believe God exists outside of time. Time is the defining characteristic of change. All change occurs in time and therefore implies a beginning time 0, which was 13.7 billion years according to scientists' best estimates. Clearly God MUST predate time.
kenblogton

You're making a huge assumption here that you might not be aware of. You're assuming that measurable time covers all of time. Why? Measurable time starts when God created matter. There could have been time before that, even if in a different sense. Scientists suggest there has been X amount of time since our universe was formed. They simply don't address what was going on prior to the 'big bang.' That would be outside their field.

Clearly God predates time as we measure it. He predates the starting point that we count from.

[Paidion]

When people experience emotion, it changes them. If we’re angry, fearful, or sad, we’re different – changed – from when we’re calm and at peace or in some other emotional state

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No our emotions don't change US; they only induce us to demonstrate a different behaviour from usual. We have the same ongoing character we had before the emotion arose. The only thing different with us is that we experienced the emotion. The same with God. The "anthropomorphism" thing is a copout, a way to explain away the emotions which God clearly has, according to Scripture.

[Singalphile]

Hello.

Interesting stuff, as usual.

As I see it, you all accept some level of open theism. I'm not committed to it, but it does help make more sense of things to me and I don't see it as unbiblical, so I like it.

On "time": From what I've read, it seems that nobody knows what "time" is or when it began. There is only conjecture.

I also don't see it necessary to think - much less insist - that Malachi 3:6 (or any of the other referenced verses) means that God has no emotion or that He does not act in response to us. It's much easier to understand these verses in other ways in their contexts (e.g., He is not wishy-washy or unstable and His character does not change).

[kenblogton]

Reply to mattrose, Paidion & Singalphile

From what I've read, it seems that nobody knows what "time" is or when it began. There is only conjecture.

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Time began at Creation, estimated at 13.7 billion years ago. Prior to that, and at the end of time, there is timeless eternity.

No our emotions don't change US; they only induce us to demonstrate a different behaviour from usual.

A person who commits a crime of passion is changed by their emotions. When David committed adultery with Bathsheba because of his lust for her, he was a different person than the "man after God's own heart," and God held him to account. Our behaviours, often motivated by our emotions, are what reveal our true character. And human character is very dynamic - changeable.

You're making a huge assumption here that you might not be aware of. You're assuming that measurable time covers all of time. Why? Measurable time starts when God created matter. There could have been time before that, even if in a different sense.

The assumption I make that time begins at Creation is, I believe, much less huge than your assumption that there was time before that. Creation is creation of space, time, matter & energy. On what do you base your assumption? Even you say it is a "could have been." In Alister McGrath’s article (McGrath, A. 2009. “Augustine’s Origin of Species.” Christianity Today, May, 38-41.), he says “For Augustine, eternity is a realm without space or time. Interestingly, this is precisely the state of existence many scientists posit existed before the big bang.” (40).
kenblogton

[Paidion]

A person who commits a crime of passion is changed by their emotions.

Is such a person changed by his emotions? Or did the change in the person take place prior to his crime, which change led him at that point to commit the crime?

Person X may carry out an act which angers person Y, but the same act would not anger person Z at all. Person Y had the character to respond to X's act with anger, but Z didn't.
Y had that character prior to X's act, and anger was the resulting emotion in Y. The emotion of anger didn't CHANGE Y in any respect. If there had been any factor which changed Y in order that he had the character to respond to X's act with anger, it occurred prior to his emotion of anger on that occasion.