To be "real in God's mind" seems to me to be another way of saying that God knows all the possible choices which we could have made instead of the one which we did, in fact, make. I'm sure that most, if not all, Open Theists agree that God knows all the possible choices which we could have made instead of the one which we did.All our possible, including all our actual, choices/actions are real in eternity - in God's Mind.
The possibility of Omniscience and Free Will
Re: The possibility of Omniscience and Free Will
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: The possibility of Omniscience and Free Will
Ken,
1) What is your definition (if you were writing a dictionary) of "omniscience"?
2) Where does the Bible use the word "omniscient"?
3) If the word is not found in scripture, then what equivalent word is found there?
4) If no equivalent word can be found in scripture, which series of scriptural affirmations add up to support for your view of God's omniscience?
Since there seems to be confusion about words here, please tell me the following:The choice we make that ends up as an action is real to God from Creation - long before it occurs. If it isn't, God is not omniscient.
1) What is your definition (if you were writing a dictionary) of "omniscience"?
2) Where does the Bible use the word "omniscient"?
3) If the word is not found in scripture, then what equivalent word is found there?
4) If no equivalent word can be found in scripture, which series of scriptural affirmations add up to support for your view of God's omniscience?
I would say that all other possible choices are "real" in the sense of their being genuine potentialities (as opposed to imagined or illusory alternatives). However, if by the word "real" you mean to say "realized," then I don't think you have anything on which to base this. Have you?As well, all our other possible choices - all our possible actions - must also be real...
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kenblogton
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Re: The possibility of Omniscience and Free Will
Reply to Paidion
To be "real in God's mind" seems to me to be another way of saying that God knows all the possible choices which we could have made instead of the one which we did, in fact, make. I'm sure that most, if not all, Open Theists agree that God knows all the possible choices which we could have made instead of the one which we did.
I'm saying one more thing: that all the possible choices are real!
kenblogton
To be "real in God's mind" seems to me to be another way of saying that God knows all the possible choices which we could have made instead of the one which we did, in fact, make. I'm sure that most, if not all, Open Theists agree that God knows all the possible choices which we could have made instead of the one which we did.
I'm saying one more thing: that all the possible choices are real!
kenblogton
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kenblogton
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- Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:39 pm
- Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada
Re: The possibility of Omniscience and Free Will
Reply to steve
1) What is your definition (if you were writing a dictionary) of "omniscience"? Omniscience is derived from the Latin Omni meaning all and Science meaning know. So omniscience means all-knowing.
2) Where does the Bible use the word "omniscient"? Omniscient does not appear in the Bible; it's a term made up by theologians.
3) If the word is not found in scripture, then what equivalent word is found there?
4) If no equivalent word can be found in scripture, which series of scriptural affirmations add up to support for your view of God's omniscience?
Some equivalents in Scripture are as follows:
Psalms 139: 16 states " All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."
Psalm 147:5 states “Great is our LORD and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.”
Isaiah 46:10 states " I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."
Matthew 24:36 states "No one knows about that day or hour [the time of the end of the world], not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
Hebrews 4:13 states "Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account."
1 John 3:20 states "For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything."
I would say that all other possible choices are "real" in the sense of their being genuine potentialities (as opposed to imagined or illusory alternatives). However, if by the word "real" you mean to say "realized," then I don't think you have anything on which to base this. Have you?
They are real in the sense that they are real possibilities, known by the God who knows everything from before Creation. If they are not real, we don't have free will. They exist in Eternity, or in the Mind of God. They are actualized or realized when we exercise our free will choices.
kenblogton
1) What is your definition (if you were writing a dictionary) of "omniscience"? Omniscience is derived from the Latin Omni meaning all and Science meaning know. So omniscience means all-knowing.
2) Where does the Bible use the word "omniscient"? Omniscient does not appear in the Bible; it's a term made up by theologians.
3) If the word is not found in scripture, then what equivalent word is found there?
4) If no equivalent word can be found in scripture, which series of scriptural affirmations add up to support for your view of God's omniscience?
Some equivalents in Scripture are as follows:
Psalms 139: 16 states " All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."
Psalm 147:5 states “Great is our LORD and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.”
Isaiah 46:10 states " I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."
Matthew 24:36 states "No one knows about that day or hour [the time of the end of the world], not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
Hebrews 4:13 states "Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account."
1 John 3:20 states "For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything."
I would say that all other possible choices are "real" in the sense of their being genuine potentialities (as opposed to imagined or illusory alternatives). However, if by the word "real" you mean to say "realized," then I don't think you have anything on which to base this. Have you?
They are real in the sense that they are real possibilities, known by the God who knows everything from before Creation. If they are not real, we don't have free will. They exist in Eternity, or in the Mind of God. They are actualized or realized when we exercise our free will choices.
kenblogton
Re: The possibility of Omniscience and Free Will
Isaiah 46:10 states " I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."
This sounds like a bit of determinism Ken, what do you think?
This sounds like a bit of determinism Ken, what do you think?
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kenblogton
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Re: The possibility of Omniscience and Free Will
Reply to steve7150
Isaiah 46:10 states " I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."
This sounds like a bit of determinism Ken, what do you think?
It is divine sovereignty/providence or "Thy will be done." Determinism says how it will be done is predetermined; sovereignty/providence says what will be done is predetermined, not how.
As Esther 4:12-14 illustrates (the underlined part), God will make sure His will is done, however it is done: "When Esther's words were reported to Mordecai, he sent back this answer: "Do not think that because you are in the king's house you alone of all the Jews will escape. For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father's family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to royal position for such a time as this?""
When Saul didn't work out as King of Israel, God got David.
kenblogton
Isaiah 46:10 states " I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."
This sounds like a bit of determinism Ken, what do you think?
It is divine sovereignty/providence or "Thy will be done." Determinism says how it will be done is predetermined; sovereignty/providence says what will be done is predetermined, not how.
As Esther 4:12-14 illustrates (the underlined part), God will make sure His will is done, however it is done: "When Esther's words were reported to Mordecai, he sent back this answer: "Do not think that because you are in the king's house you alone of all the Jews will escape. For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father's family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to royal position for such a time as this?""
When Saul didn't work out as King of Israel, God got David.
kenblogton
Re: The possibility of Omniscience and Free Will
It is divine sovereignty/providence or "Thy will be done." Determinism says how it will be done is predetermined; sovereignty/providence says what will be done is predetermined, not how.
Ken,
An interesting distinction although i don't recall these as biblical definitions, but if i'm wrong please provide any relevant verses. I thought Sovereignty meant the King has dominion and the right to exercise it whether he actually does or not.
Ken,
An interesting distinction although i don't recall these as biblical definitions, but if i'm wrong please provide any relevant verses. I thought Sovereignty meant the King has dominion and the right to exercise it whether he actually does or not.
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kenblogton
- Posts: 147
- Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:39 pm
- Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada
Re: The possibility of Omniscience and Free Will
Reply to steve7150
An interesting distinction although i don't recall these as biblical definitions, but if i'm wrong please provide any relevant verses. I thought Sovereignty meant the King has dominion and the right to exercise it whether he actually does or not.
You're essentially correct. Here's what Theopedia (http://www.theopedia.com/Sovereignty_of_God) says about Sovereignty:
"The Sovereignty of God is the biblical teaching that all things are under God's rule and control, and that nothing happens without His direction or permission. God works not just some things but all things according to the counsel of His own will (see Eph. 1:11). His purposes are all-inclusive and never thwarted (see Isa. 46:11); nothing takes Him by surprise. The sovereignty of God is not merely that God has the power and right to govern all things, but that He does so, always and without exception. In other words, God is not merely sovereign de jure (in principle), but sovereign de facto (in practice)."
""What do we mean by [the sovereignty of God]? We mean the supremacy of God, the kingship of God, the god-hood of God. To say that God is Sovereign is to declare that God is God. To say that God is Sovereign is to declare that He is the Most High, doing according to His will in the army of Heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, so that none can stay His hand or say unto Him what doest Thou? (Dan. 4:35). To say that God is Sovereign is to declare that He is the Almighty, the Possessor of all power in Heaven and earth, so that none can defeat His counsels, thwart His purpose, or resist His will (Psa. 115:3). To say that God is Sovereign is to declare that He is "The Governor among the nations" (Psa. 22:28), setting up kingdoms, overthrowing empires, and determining the course of dynasties as pleaseth Him best. To say that God is Sovereign is to declare that He is the "Only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords" (1 Tim. 6:15). Such is the God of the Bible.""
kenblogton
An interesting distinction although i don't recall these as biblical definitions, but if i'm wrong please provide any relevant verses. I thought Sovereignty meant the King has dominion and the right to exercise it whether he actually does or not.
You're essentially correct. Here's what Theopedia (http://www.theopedia.com/Sovereignty_of_God) says about Sovereignty:
"The Sovereignty of God is the biblical teaching that all things are under God's rule and control, and that nothing happens without His direction or permission. God works not just some things but all things according to the counsel of His own will (see Eph. 1:11). His purposes are all-inclusive and never thwarted (see Isa. 46:11); nothing takes Him by surprise. The sovereignty of God is not merely that God has the power and right to govern all things, but that He does so, always and without exception. In other words, God is not merely sovereign de jure (in principle), but sovereign de facto (in practice)."
""What do we mean by [the sovereignty of God]? We mean the supremacy of God, the kingship of God, the god-hood of God. To say that God is Sovereign is to declare that God is God. To say that God is Sovereign is to declare that He is the Most High, doing according to His will in the army of Heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, so that none can stay His hand or say unto Him what doest Thou? (Dan. 4:35). To say that God is Sovereign is to declare that He is the Almighty, the Possessor of all power in Heaven and earth, so that none can defeat His counsels, thwart His purpose, or resist His will (Psa. 115:3). To say that God is Sovereign is to declare that He is "The Governor among the nations" (Psa. 22:28), setting up kingdoms, overthrowing empires, and determining the course of dynasties as pleaseth Him best. To say that God is Sovereign is to declare that He is the "Only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords" (1 Tim. 6:15). Such is the God of the Bible.""
kenblogton
Re: The possibility of Omniscience and Free Will
I'm not sure that you are saying one more thing, Ken. When you say that all the possible choices are real, what do you mean by "real". You seem do deny that these unrealized choices have an independent existence somewhere, but that they are "real in God's mind".kenblogton wrote:I'm saying one more thing: that all the possible choices are real!Paidion wrote:To be "real in God's mind" seems to me to be another way of saying that God knows all the possible choices which we could have made instead of the one which we did, in fact, make. I'm sure that most, if not all, Open Theists agree that God knows all the possible choices which we could have made instead of the one which we did.
It could be "real" in your mind that your friend will come over for a visit tomorrow. But if your friend doesn't, in fact, come over, did your thought have some independent reality?
If I have breakfast at a restaurant and am given a choice of having either bacon or ham with my eggs, and I choose bacon, then God knows (and I know) that I could have chosen ham. In what way does that possible choice of ham have a "real" existence in the mind of God? Does it also have a "real" existence in my mind? If so, in what sense?
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
-
kenblogton
- Posts: 147
- Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:39 pm
- Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada
Re: The possibility of Omniscience and Free Will
Reply to Paidion
I'm not sure that you are saying one more thing, Ken. When you say that all the possible choices are real, what do you mean by "real". You seem do deny that these unrealized choices have an independent existence somewhere, but that they are "real in God's mind".
God knows the choice that you ultimately end up making because He is omniscient; that choice is real not only when you make it but also when it is established at Creation in eternity in God's Mind. In the same way, all the possible choices available to you must also be real and established in eternity in God's Mind because you have free will and so God does not know which choice you will make in time. All your possible choices do not have a separate existence in some dimension of the physical world; their reality is strictly in eternity in God's Mind - the ultimate reality.
kenblogton
I'm not sure that you are saying one more thing, Ken. When you say that all the possible choices are real, what do you mean by "real". You seem do deny that these unrealized choices have an independent existence somewhere, but that they are "real in God's mind".
God knows the choice that you ultimately end up making because He is omniscient; that choice is real not only when you make it but also when it is established at Creation in eternity in God's Mind. In the same way, all the possible choices available to you must also be real and established in eternity in God's Mind because you have free will and so God does not know which choice you will make in time. All your possible choices do not have a separate existence in some dimension of the physical world; their reality is strictly in eternity in God's Mind - the ultimate reality.
kenblogton