Piper: conditionalism vs certainty

[darinhouston]

This 8 minute QA should provoke some good thoughts and discussion.

http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/c ... l-security


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[dwilkins]

What I hear from him is just typical Calvinist double talk nonsense. He's basically saying that glorification is conditional, but God will absolutely make sure that you continue to be faithful (unless you aren't, in which case God was only making you think you were saved before he makes you stop believing in order to demonstrate to the world how glorious he is) so that there is no way the negative option of the condition can be met. The good news I suppose is that from that point of view, God already decided that I should think that Piper is full of it, and I don't have any choice whether to express it or not.

Doug

[darinhouston]

But seeing as he (and his arguments) has had a profound impact on a vast majority of North American Christian's perspectives on these issues, being equipped to address them seems somewhat important.


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[dwilkins]

He has an impact on a small subset of Christians. They're deluded. It's good that he's basically teaching them proper morality. It's less good that he is teaching them that they need to chose it, but that if they do it's because God made them do it. 100 years from now I'll be interested to see what theology looks like since the West will be eclipsed by China, and they tend to have a more folk religion/Pentecostal approach.

Doug

[darinhouston]

I think you're underestimating his influence.


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[jaydam]

Darin, I would agree with you regarding Piper's influence. As a current seminary student in a Pentecostal Bible College, I am surprised how much of an undertone there is of reformed ideas in general, and how much specifically Piper and his ideas are intertwined into the belief systems.

I do think Mark Driscoll has played a huge role in introducing the generation of students I am surrounded by to "cool" reformed theology, where they then find themselves moving to Piper.

Although, it is not just the student population, at somewhat of a lessor rate, but still a significant number, many of the faculty seem to hold Piper in a very influential position.

When I listen to him, I find little to relate to my life. My decade plus lived in drugs, alcohol, and sin, was inevitable and caused by God for God's glory. My salvation now is still not my choice to recognize the love of God that he extended to me, rather it is God forcing me to glorify him. Something that may show I am of the elect, but that is not at all certain.

Essentially, I am a filthy-rag pawn in the hands of a self-centered God, not working anything out of true love, but egotistical self-glorification. I should hang my head in my shame, but if I can't, then I'm not predestined to anyway, so I cannot help it.

It is amazing how many students walk around with filthy-rag syndrome, low self-esteem, believing God sees everything they do as worthless before his holiness. They live in almost a depressed state of inadequacy rather than kingdom members of Christ's body, having been given hope of glory.

/rant

[Michelle]

Hi Jaydam,

It is amazing how many students walk around with filthy-rag syndrome, low self-esteem, believing God sees everything they do as worthless before his holiness. They live in almost a depressed state of inadequacy rather than kingdom members of Christ's body, having been given hope of glory.

/rant

What would you say to these many students if you were given the chance? (Perhaps you HAVE had the chance??)

[Michelle]

He has an impact on a small subset of Christians. They're deluded. It's good that he's basically teaching them proper morality. It's less good that he is teaching them that they need to chose it, but that if they do it's because God made them do it. 100 years from now I'll be interested to see what theology looks like since the West will be eclipsed by China, and they tend to have a more folk religion/Pentecostal approach.

Doug

Doug, where can I find information about the theological approach in China?

[dwilkins]

I'm not sure where you'd find it in writing. I've talked to a couple of people who were either missionaries to China or training Chinese college students to return to China as Christian leaders. The missionary described their approach as a light version of Baptist theology with some charismatic elements on the frontiers. The trainer is from a Pentecostal church, so obviously he is teaching their theology. I don't know a ton about the subject, but anecdotally I get the impression that the highly mechanistic, ahistorical, propositional approach based on European vocabulary is not catching on. There might also be a hint at what's behind the scene in the book I posted about, "Misreading Scripture With Western Eyes". The authors point out how the eastern mindset (in their cases illustrated by Indonesia in some of the chapters) is significantly different than the European one, which makes it easier for them to intuitively understand Biblical culture. I also think it's interesting that the kaleidoscope approach of atonement theory reportedly has some advantages over strict penal substitutionary atonement (PSA) in the eastern mind. It makes more sense to them to define salvation as a healing from shame better than salvation from guilt. Since Reformed theology absolutely requires PSA I think it is at a major cultural disadvantage to other explanations of Christianity.

Doug

[Michelle]

Thanks, Doug. I'm fascinated by Chinese culture and especially the phenomenal spread of Christianity in China.