The Narrow Path Ministries

Picked up a shiny, new appearing copy of John Piper's book "What Jesus Demands From the World" at the Goodwill store. Okay, but it was cheap. Anyway, there are some good things in it. But in the book Piper says Jesus demands that people "Believe in Me" (demand #4) when demand #1 is "You Must Be Born Again". Regarding being born again he explains that what Jesus demanded from Nicodemus He demands from all. No one is excluded. Piper says "Look away from yourself. Seek from God what he alone can do for you." "It is radical and supernatural." "It is outside our control." "The dead do not give themselves new life."

But the Calvinist mantra long has been that no one seeks God because they are "dead", must first be born again. Hmmm.

Jesus demands from you that which is not possible, that only God can do. And this is "good news"?

Seek from God what he alone can do for you." "It is radical and supernatural." "It is outside our control." "The dead do not give themselves new life."






Well if seeking from God can influence God's actions then perhaps this is a modified version of Calvinism?

[user account removed]

My oldest brother was a Baptist minister and a Calvinist. He believed that all who become "saved" are predestined from the beginning of time to be Christians.

I asked him why he bothered to preach then, since everyone was either predestined to be a Christian or was not.

He replied, "I was predestined to preach."

It seems to me that it's unproblematic for God to state a true fact in the form of a conditional statement. If you do not do X, then you will not be saved. That is a true statement whether or not X is within the power of some people. The second point is that there is certainly a sense which it is within our power to seek God under Calvinism. There's no external compulsion preventing us from doing this. The only thing that stops the non-elect from doing so is their own sinful desire not to do so. It hardly seems fair to view this intrinsic refusal to do something an incapacity in the relevant moral sense. It is certainly true, under Calvinism, that at the end of the day nobody is going to make that step without being freed by God from those sinful psychological tendencies, but that does not affect the fundamental point that the only thing stopping anyone from seeking God is the person's own desire and intent not to do so. Seems pretty fair to me.

CThomas wrote:It seems to me that it's unproblematic for God to state a true fact in the form of a conditional statement. If you do not do X, then you will not be saved. That is a true statement whether or not X is within the power of some people. The second point is that there is certainly a sense which it is within our power to seek God under Calvinism. There's no external compulsion preventing us from doing this. The only thing that stops the non-elect from doing so is their own sinful desire not to do so. It hardly seems fair to view this intrinsic refusal to do something an incapacity in the relevant moral sense. It is certainly true, under Calvinism, that at the end of the day nobody is going to make that step without being freed by God from those sinful psychological tendencies, but that does not affect the fundamental point that the only thing stopping anyone from seeking God is the person's own desire and intent not to do so. Seems pretty fair to me.

I think you're mistaken about the logical conclusions of Calvinism. As far as I can tell they don't allow for any true creaturely freedom or self-determination, just an illusion of it.

God in Calvin’s Box

Calvin crammed God into a little box.
He looked down and said, “God, Your sovereignty
Is limited to what my theological orthodox
Determines it must be.

I’ve worked it all out in my ivory tower,
Studied ‘til I was numb in the brain,
And I hereby decree that You must conduct Your power
In such-and-such a way, or You lack total domain.

I’ve figured You out, and my conclusion (based
On Augustine’s grasp of the Fates)
Is that You can’t grant us Free Will, and here’s why:
If Free Will were so, then wave bye-bye,
To Your total sovereignty.
Behold! I've created a mystery!

Making man free by one tiny dot,
Would mean, You’re not!
So it’s in that one facet I hereby decree
A limit on Your sovereignty.

Listen to reason, learn from my school,
How could You possibly hope to rule
Such a complicated mess?
Free Will? Hog wash! Alas, I must confess,
I’m having fits with this Swiss town,
And You’ve got the whole world to keep down!

Free Will’s too tricky for God or man,
So let’s just stick with my simple plan.
To grant You power to rule free men,
Would conflict with my mind and pen.
There is no place in my theology,
To allow for man to be free.

One last thought (and it must come from You):
Lacking free will, what’s a killer to do,
But to point his bloody fingers at You?
With him I must agree. You see,
Every sin is ordained by Thee,
According to my theology.

Allowing me to choose
Would mean, ‘God, You lose.’
And egad! It would shift liability,
From guilty Thee to innocent me.”

(An original poem by Candlepower, 3/28/2015)

dizerner wrote:

CThomas wrote:It seems to me that it's unproblematic for God to state a true fact in the form of a conditional statement. If you do not do X, then you will not be saved. That is a true statement whether or not X is within the power of some people. The second point is that there is certainly a sense which it is within our power to seek God under Calvinism. There's no external compulsion preventing us from doing this. The only thing that stops the non-elect from doing so is their own sinful desire not to do so. It hardly seems fair to view this intrinsic refusal to do something an incapacity in the relevant moral sense. It is certainly true, under Calvinism, that at the end of the day nobody is going to make that step without being freed by God from those sinful psychological tendencies, but that does not affect the fundamental point that the only thing stopping anyone from seeking God is the person's own desire and intent not to do so. Seems pretty fair to me.

I think you're mistaken about the logical conclusions of Calvinism. As far as I can tell they don't allow for any true creaturely freedom or self-determination, just an illusion of it.[/quote

I think everything I said in my last message is consistent with a fully deterministic model of Calvinism where God ordains every event in human history. It is still the case that people fail to come to God only because they do not desire to do so. Everyone is treated fairly insofar as he is judged according to his own sinful desires, and there is no impediment apart from those desires to anyone's salvation.

What is this thing with Calvinists that they want to have their cake and eat it too. They constantly want to insinuate "something" like a separate creaturely desire, but divine determinism doesn't allow for any "real" freedom.

the person's own desire and intent not to do so

Can you not see this is deceitful talk if underneath one believes divine determinism? It is not truly a person's "own intent" if God forced that person to have their own intent and not the person's own self-determination. It's "God's own intent forced to become a person's own intent." We have two choices:

1. God is the real self determining cause.
2. Creatures are the real self determining cause.

Why constantly use language that confuses and mixes these two, instead of what Calvinism really implies?