Genesis 4:7 timshol תִּמְשָׁל־ a choice?
Genesis 4:7 timshol תִּמְשָׁל־ a choice?
Gen. 4:7"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."
Recently I listened to the audiobook "East of Eden". The last word Adam speaks in the book is , the way Steinbeck wrote it, timshel, but I've since read it would be more properly written in English, timshal or timshol. In the book it is postulated that this word is telling us that Cain had a choice to rule over sin in his life, as sin was crouching at the door and he "may" rule over it if he would. In other words, he had a choice.
If 4:7 is telling us Cain had a choice, but he chose to do evil rather than rule over the sin in his own heart, is this not a strong argument for free will?
I have absolutely no background in Hebrew whatsoever so I'm bringing this here to all of you to help me know what this verse actually states.
Recently I listened to the audiobook "East of Eden". The last word Adam speaks in the book is , the way Steinbeck wrote it, timshel, but I've since read it would be more properly written in English, timshal or timshol. In the book it is postulated that this word is telling us that Cain had a choice to rule over sin in his life, as sin was crouching at the door and he "may" rule over it if he would. In other words, he had a choice.
If 4:7 is telling us Cain had a choice, but he chose to do evil rather than rule over the sin in his own heart, is this not a strong argument for free will?
I have absolutely no background in Hebrew whatsoever so I'm bringing this here to all of you to help me know what this verse actually states.
Re: Genesis 4:7 timshol תִּמְשָׁל־ a choice?
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Last edited by dizerner on Mon Feb 20, 2023 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Genesis 4:7 timshol תִּמְשָׁל־ a choice?
I have no background in Hebrew either. There seem to be two main forms of the Hebrew text. One is the Masoretic text from which the Old Testament of your Bible was translated. But you may have noticed that the New Testament quotes of the Old, often differ considerably from the Masoretic text. However, these OT quotes are identical or almost identical to the Septuagint, the translation of the OT from Hebrew to Greek, several hundred years B.C. Also, the Hebrew found in cave 4 at Qumran matches the Septuagint.I have absolutely no background in Hebrew whatsoever so I'm bringing this here to all of you to help me know what this verse actually states.
The Septuagint uses a simple future tense, namely the future active indicative: "You shall reign over it."
The "Dead Sea Scrolls" Bible (taken from the scrolls from the Qumran. I'm not certain if it's cave 4) simply says "Rule", as if a command to rule over it.
The Jewish Study Bible translates it as "You can be its master."
I hope this helps.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: Genesis 4:7 timshol תִּמְשָׁל־ a choice?
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Last edited by dizerner on Mon Feb 20, 2023 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Genesis 4:7 timshol תִּמְשָׁל־ a choice?
If 4:7 is telling us Cain had a choice, but he chose to do evil rather than rule over the sin in his own heart, is this not a strong argument for free will?
It is a strong argument that Cain had a choice to make but i'm not sure if that necessarily means free will. Free means unencumbered, i'm not sure that the human heart is unencumbered without Christ. Christ's sacrifice was decided before the foundation of the world, it didn't sound conditional.
It is a strong argument that Cain had a choice to make but i'm not sure if that necessarily means free will. Free means unencumbered, i'm not sure that the human heart is unencumbered without Christ. Christ's sacrifice was decided before the foundation of the world, it didn't sound conditional.
Re: Genesis 4:7 timshol תִּמְשָׁל־ a choice?
I am not convinced that "free will" means "unencumbered action". I think Cain had the ability to choose. That is tantamount to saying that he had free will.It is a strong argument that Cain had a choice to make but i'm not sure if that necessarily means free will. Free means unencumbered
Cain killed his brother. Could he have refrained from killing his brother? If so, he had free will.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
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Re: Genesis 4:7 timshol תִּמְשָׁל־ a choice?
(I read a commentary once on the book of Genesis, but do not remember who wrote it. The author's comment on this verse, as I recall, was that this particular verse was one of the most difficult to translate in the entire book.)Mitzi wrote:Gen. 4:7"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."
I agree that it is a strong argument, but struggle with the idea whether Cain really could stand against the temptation. I do see that this is strong call to man that sin consists not only of wicked actions, but of a strong inward inclination to evil thoughts and desires, and that both are an offense toward God. The subject here is more of the nature of what Jesus speaks about in the sermon on the mount (Matt 5:21-22).If 4:7 is telling us Cain had a choice, but he chose to do evil rather than rule over the sin in his own heart, is this not a strong argument for free will?
This caution to Cain stands alongside the incident in the Garden of Eden as a consequence of that initial disobedience. For Adam and Eve, created in the image of God, the temptation is presented as the invitation to do something wrong (a sinful action). Now Cain, a child born in the likeness of Adam and Eve (see Gen 5:1-3), has a different problem (a sinful attitude). He has not yet done anything wrong, except to think about what he wants to do - kill his brother.
Both need to be dealt with at the cross of Christ, and they are.
Regards, Graeme
If you find yourself between a rock and a hard place, always head for the rock. Ps 62..
Re: Genesis 4:7 timshol תִּמְשָׁל־ a choice?
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Last edited by dizerner on Mon Feb 20, 2023 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Genesis 4:7 timshol תִּמְשָׁל־ a choice?
I agree. Cain was plainly told he could overcome this hatred in his heart, or whatever it was, if he wanted to so there's notdizerner wrote:
I think it would be mockery for God to tell Cain to master it if he could not. God is not a deceiver.
going to be an excuse for Cain after he commits the act because he was warned that he didn't have to do this thing,
but he CHOSE to anyway. It seems to me that claiming Cain didn't have a choice but to commit evil is laying the blame on God for
Cain's sin rather than holding Cain accountable for his own choices.
In society it's an obvious given that people are responsible for their own behavior and if you don't believe it, go rob a bank and see if they don't throw you into jail.
Humans are free moral agents and we're held responsible by God for the choices we make or else there couldn't be a judgment in the end.
Re: Genesis 4:7 timshol תִּמְשָׁל־ a choice?
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Last edited by dizerner on Mon Feb 20, 2023 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.