A Compatibilistic Understanding of Free Will

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Paidion
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A Compatibilistic Understanding of Free Will

Post by Paidion » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:02 pm

A leaf was riven from a tree, "I mean to fall to earth," said he.
The west wind, rising, made him veer. "Eastward," said he, "I now shall steer."
The east wind rose with greater force. Said he, " 'Twere wise to change my course."
With equal power they contend. He said,"My judgment I suspend."
Down died the winds; the leaf, elate, cried, "I've decided to fall straight."
"First thoughts are best?" That's not the moral; just choose your own and we'll not quarrel.
Howe'er you choice may chance to fall, you'll have no hand in it at all.

G.J.
Paidion

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dizerner

Re: A Compatibilistic Understanding of Free Will

Post by dizerner » Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:21 pm

As a result, we are no longer to be children,
tossed here and there by waves
and carried about by every wind of doctrine,
by the trickery of men,
by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
but speaking the truth in love,
we are to grow up in all aspects
into Him who is the head,
even Christ.


On that judgment day I don't think it will work much to say "But Lord, I was just a leaf." Take away true free will, and we are no different than leaves being blown around, I agree; but it also takes away the image of God in us. Just take the word "free" out of the phrase "compatibilistic free will," so it doesn't sound like the term is saying the opposite of what it means. I'm amazed at the disingenuity of this term "compatibilistic free will" thought up by some people who realized the Bible sounded so heavily like humans had a choice, that they had to think up a doctrine to make their complete divine fatalism work.

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Paidion
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Re: A Compatibilistic Understanding of Free Will

Post by Paidion » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:38 pm

Image

With everything you wrote above, I couldn't agree more.

Compatibilists are trying to reconcile free will and determinism, but that cannot be done. Indeed, many philosophers use the term "soft determinism" to describe compatibilism. It's "soft" because its determinism isn't quite as obvious as that of "hard" determinism. Notwithstanding, I think they are but two different peas in the same pod.

You probably know, Dizerner, that I believe in libertarian free will (as did the early Christians). I think this simply means "the ability to choose", but determinists of both stripes try to fit "the ability to choose" into their system, without really believing in it. They think that, like the leaf, we THINK we have liberterian free will, but that actually all of our "choices" are determined by external and internal causes.

I agree with libertarians' understanding of "libertarian free will" as follows: If, in the past, at time T and in circumstances C, I had chosen some action A, I COULD HAVE chosen "not A" at that same time T and in those same circumstances C. Both hard and soft determinists disagree. If you do agree, I think it could safely be said that you believe in libertarian free will.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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mattrose
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Re: A Compatibilistic Understanding of Free Will

Post by mattrose » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:56 pm

I recently finished reading this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-Views-Free-M ... +free+will

I, of course, thought that Robert Kane's position was far and away the superior view (libertarianism).

But perhaps none of the views was as ANTI-compelling as the chapter on compatibilism

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Paidion
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Re: A Compatibilistic Understanding of Free Will

Post by Paidion » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:55 pm

Thanks for sharing that, Matt. It looks like a fascinating book!
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: A Compatibilistic Understanding of Free Will

Post by mattrose » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:53 am

It is not particularly long, but it was fairly heavy reading for me. I don't have any training in philosophy. I felt like parts of the book were over my head, but I suspect, also, that defending nonsense sometimes causes one to go overboard with technical jargon. Kane's contributions were the only ones I claim to have fully understood, but that could be because they were the only parts that made sense!

Si
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Re: A Compatibilistic Understanding of Free Will

Post by Si » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:52 pm

I have to say, I am intrigued by compatibilism. It seems that on one level, humans have free will, and on another, everything will turn out as God intends. When Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery, it was not only their own wills at work for evil, but God's will for Good. Compatibilism seems paradoxical, sure, but I don't have a problem not being able to fully wrap my mind around how an infinite God works in the world. The trinity is another paradox that most Christians accept. We have no human understanding of how one being can exist eternally in three persons, but most of us believe it.

I am not a Calvinist, but I do think there is some merit in compatibilism. I think the problem a lot have with it is how Calvinists present it tied to their soteriology. Calvinism uses compatibilism to blame the damned for a fallen state that they can do nothing to change, and I have a problem with that too. But as a general philosophy, I think it best harmonizes the scriptures about God's sovereignty and man's free will.

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mattrose
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Re: A Compatibilistic Understanding of Free Will

Post by mattrose » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:58 pm

God's sovereignty and free are compatible.

Even God's ultimate victory and free will are compatible.

The debate as I understand it is whether determinism is compatible with free will. I don't see how they could be compatible without changing the definition of free will so much that it is no longer free will.

Si
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Re: A Compatibilistic Understanding of Free Will

Post by Si » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:42 pm

mattrose wrote:The debate as I understand it is whether determinism is compatible with free will. I don't see how they could be compatible without changing the definition of free will so much that it is no longer free will.
That is precisely the paradox I am exploring. Joseph's brothers' wills were entirely free in their actions, and God enacting his own will accomplished precisely what he intended. It says nothing about Joseph's brothers being steered or coerced to do what they did, they were free. Yet the result of their actions was what entirely what God intended for good. It seems that could be applied to all of redemptive history.

I don't see how we can say that there is one God who exists in three persons, without changing the definition of one so much that it is no longer one. But I believe in the Trinity. I don't think we have to be able to wrap our mind around every mystery and paradox that we find in scripture.

I just want to say, I am not taking a firm stance on this topic. I'm really just exploring the issue and putting my ideas to the test.

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darinhouston
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Re: A Compatibilistic Understanding of Free Will

Post by darinhouston » Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:04 pm

mattrose wrote:God's sovereignty and free are compatible.

Even God's ultimate victory and free will are compatible.

The debate as I understand it is whether determinism is compatible with free will. I don't see how they could be compatible without changing the definition of free will so much that it is no longer free will.
exactly!


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