The Apostle Paul's Conversion

User avatar
jriccitelli
Posts: 1317
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:14 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by jriccitelli » Tue May 12, 2015 5:57 pm

Never did I say we our in the future. Our future selves are in the future, just as our past selves are in the past
Well that 'would' be saying we are in the future. Now you are suggesting we have three selves. Or, actually you would need billions of selves for each and every moment in time that God sees.
God is the one who is at all times and all places
God has not said He is 'at all times', or 'in' the past, and 'in' the future. He said He is the beginning and the end, not that God is 'in' either of those places in time. God said He will bring whatever He wants to past, and into existence.
God is the one who is at all times and all places
This idea would actually have us, everyone and everything 'in all times and all places'
So you really see God as time-bound being?
Time travel is a relatively modern idea, popularized by science fiction, although there are some obscure mythological and scattered religious stories about time travel, it is unknown to scripture. And it is not necessary to scripture. There is no 'reason' for God to have to see, travel, or move through time, as if God needs to adjust something, or remember something. God should not have to see something happen in order to know what will happen. The idea that God needs to 'see' the future 'in order to know it' makes God dumber, not smarter. If 'I' could see the future, then I would be as smart as God in this area too. God does not need to see the future to predict it, or bring it to past.
Last edited by jriccitelli on Tue May 12, 2015 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dizerner

Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by dizerner » Tue May 12, 2015 6:00 pm

Paidion wrote:I don't know Hebrew, but the Greek Setuagint translation of the passage (which the New Testament writers used) begins Isaiah 57:15 this way:

Thus says the Lord, the highest in high places, dwelling [during] the ages...
What English LXX are you quoting? That's a bad translation, because ages is clearly in the singular.

Image

dizerner

Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by dizerner » Tue May 12, 2015 6:07 pm

jriccitelli wrote:
Never did I say we our in the future. Our future selves are in the future, just as our past selves are in the past
Well that 'would' be saying we are in the future. Now you are suggesting we have three selves. Or, actually you would need billions of selves for each and every moment in time that God sees.
You agree you change over time, right. Ever heard someone say "I am not the man I used to be." Ever hear someone say "I hope to be a new man in the future." I don't see how you can argue that you are exactly the same at every point in time. If you change over time, then each "instance" of you at any given point in time is slightly different.
This idea would actually have us, everyone and everything 'in all times and all places'
Lol, no it wouldn't. What are you thinking? I never said we are not time-bound creatures.
Time travel is a relatively modern idea, popularized by science fiction, although there are some obscure mythological and scattered religious stories about time travel, it is unknown to scripture. And it is not necessary to scripture. There is no 'reason' for God to have to see, travel, or move through time, as if God needs to adjust something, or remember something.
Time travel?!! I think you are watching too many movies, JR :lol:. God being at all places and all times is not him traveling around in a Delorean. Please don't create a caricature of my position. :P
God should not have to see something happen in order to know what will happen. The idea that God needs to 'see' the future 'in order to know it' makes God dumber, not smarter. If 'I' could see the future, then I would be as smart as God in this area too. God does not need to see the future to predict it, or bring it to past.
Oh come on, this is completely ridiculous. You know I'm not talking about a literal seeing, with God having literally balls of fluids for eyes, like we do. You know the Bible constantly anthropomorphizes God? Are you going to agree with the atheists that that disproves God being an eternal spirit?

dizerner

Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by dizerner » Tue May 12, 2015 6:21 pm

Also, Jr, I hate to press you, but you never answered the most important question, and it really exposes limiting God in time Scripturally:

If God is time-bound, how can he know the future without just being either, a determinist, or a super good guesser that sometimes gets things wrong?

For example:

How would you explain God having a book with a list of names of those whom he will save: how can God guess what those names will be, when they are dependent on endless free will choices?

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by Paidion » Tue May 12, 2015 6:34 pm

Dizerner wrote:What English LXX are you quoting? That's a bad translation, because ages is clearly in the singular.
You are right. "τον αιωνα" is clearly in the singular. I wasn't using an English translation. I was looking at the Greek, and wrote my own translation.
I was mistaken. I glanced at the word and thought it was a neuter plural, because many neuter plurals end in alpha. But this word is a masculine singular. The masculine singular in the accusative case of " αιων" ends in alpha. If I had looked a little more carefully, I might have noticed its modifier "τον" which can be none other than the accusative singular for "the."

So as you see it, "dwelling in the age" would be "dwelling in eternity"? Does "the age" refer to "eternity"? Is there only one age? Ephesians 2:7 speaks of "the coming ages." Also 11 times in Revelation, and 6 times elsewhere in the New Testament the expression "εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων" occurs. This phrase literally means "into the ages of the ages."
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by Paidion » Tue May 12, 2015 6:55 pm

Dizerner to JR wrote:If God is time-bound, how can he know the future without just being either, a determinist, or a super good guesser that sometimes gets things wrong?
I don't mean to answer for JR, but whenever I encounter this argument, I feel constrained to respond.

I think neither of us believes that God determines the future (at least the total future), and so we can discard that one. That leaves me with "God is a super-good guesser that sometimes gets things wrong." This I believe to be a distortion of the facts. God is not a "guesser" in any sense. God makes predictions, and predictions are not guesses. God's predictions are based on total information. There is NOTHING that He does not know. His predictions are based on His full knowledge of the universe including the thoughts and intents of every human being. That's why His predictions usually correspond with what actually happens. However, there are a few of His predictions recorded in the Bible which DIDN'T come to pass. I have referred to these several times, and see no need to repeat them. Is that what you call "getting it wrong"? God didn't get it wrong. His predictions were based on full knowledge of the people involved. But people are free-will agents. They sometimes change their minds, and choose the unexpected. That is what happened in each case in which God's predictions didn't turn out as He expected. This is why (according to the book of Jonah) God changed His mind about the disaster which He had intended to bring upon Ninevah, after the Ninevites repented. I know you have thought that He didn't really intend to bring the disaster in the first place. But if that were true, then in saying through Jonah, "40 days and Ninevah shall be overthrown," He lied.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
jriccitelli
Posts: 1317
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:14 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by jriccitelli » Wed May 13, 2015 10:58 am

That is what happened in each case in which God's predictions didn't turn out as He expected (Paidion, above)
(There you go again Paidion, I was really hoping to agree with you on something, but) How could you say that? In Jonah it says Jonah anticipated God would relent, that is why Jonah did not want to go. Why would a Christian, let alone a Universalist, suggest God's Judgments and warnings of destruction are not based on the choice to repent and turn, prior to God bringing the Judgment to pass?

I swear I just stated this, somewhere else; since Adam all judgments and warning are based on the condition, and desire that people repent. This rule of the Covenant was known since Adam, attested to by the patriarchs, and made into Law with the Law, see Deuteronomy for instance: “So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, 2 and you return to the LORD your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons, 3 then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you" (Deuteronomy 30)
The Prophets of Israel were the messengers of the covenants with Israel, the warnings of curses and blessings applied to everyone around including the foreign nations. Jonah was from a town near where Jesus was later born, so Jonah was a Prophet of Israel - Jonah knew, believed and carried the message of the Covenant repent was the message of the Covenant:
"But it greatly displeased Jonah and he became angry. 2 He prayed to the LORD and said, “Please LORD, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity" (Jonah 4)
I am either displeased, or amazed that you suggest in your post: "I know you have thought that He didn't really intend to bring the disaster in the first place. But if that were true, then in saying through Jonah, "40 days and Ninevah shall be overthrown" He lied. What is your point in saying that? Specifically Jonah, such a Prophesy concerning Judgment comes with a stipulation, and Jonah says here that Gods mercy is precisely why Jonah did not want to go. Nineveh was an enemy of Israel, and the Israelites would rather God destroy them than their being repentant.

User avatar
jriccitelli
Posts: 1317
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:14 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by jriccitelli » Wed May 13, 2015 11:36 am

(First of all, none of this concerns the past really, it happened already and God can remember it all, no problem. This concerns future events)
If God is time-bound, how can he know the future without just being either, a determinist, or a super good guesser that sometimes gets things wrong? (Diz, above)
1. Scripture absolutely declares that we have freewill.
2. And scripture declares that God can predict the future.
So what do we believe? We believe BOTH.

We believe that God can predict our freewill choices:
1. God can intervene: and God certainly does.
2. He can resist intervening: God declares He does.
How does God predict our choices? We can only theorize, but neither of these two premises above are illogical, nor opposed (predicting freewill choices). God is simply fantastically able and knowing. Aside from God's amazing wisdom (which I would stay with myself) some people come up with theories that are hard to imagine, and some that are imaginative, but we should stay within a logical realm, and within reason, since God has revealed Himself, and put us in, a reasonable logical realm.

What steps into absurdities - is suggesting that the future actually happened (that makes the word future ambiguous, if not meaningless). You are now saying God only sees them (as in a vision, or in His mind). Then I would agree, this is an abstract future, and it is what I am saying: God predicts what He wants to do, or more correctly KNOWS what He will do, and He will bring it to pass. There is no future selves that have done or participated in any real event outside of time or in the present now.

User avatar
jriccitelli
Posts: 1317
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:14 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by jriccitelli » Wed May 13, 2015 12:07 pm

Lol, no it wouldn't. What are you thinking? I never said we are not time-bound creatures (Diz)
What am I thinking? I was wondering the same of you (and, that last sentence could be read two different ways). But if you agree with me that we are time bound, then so are all creation and events time bound. There is nothing in the future for God to see, or hear, or touch. God predicts it will be so, and declares it will be so, and so it will be.
Time travel?!! I think you are watching too many movies, JR (Diz)
'I' am not the person suggesting time travel. And 'I' am 'not' the one suggesting different points on a time line as a reality. I am saying it is absurd.
You know I'm not talking about a literal seeing (Diz)
Then what are you describing? You have an illustration on the previous page you should explain.
Either the future is known by God because:
1. God can predict it, and or, He can intervene to bring it to pass (both precepts are biblical, and reasonable).
2. Or as your illustration suggests He knows it because it has happened: As your illustration suggests, just as God sees the already happened past, God sees the ________ future.

There is no alternative: something is either predicted to happen / or it has happened.

dizerner

Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by dizerner » Wed May 13, 2015 5:06 pm

Paidion wrote:So as you see it, "dwelling in the age" would be "dwelling in eternity"? Does "the age" refer to "eternity"? Is there only one age? Ephesians 2:7 speaks of "the coming ages." Also 11 times in Revelation, and 6 times elsewhere in the New Testament the expression "εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων" occurs. This phrase literally means "into the ages of the ages."
Yes, I think the singular is significant here, representing how the Hebrews used עַד. In conjunction with the idea of dwelling/abiding/inhabiting/tabernacling this "beyond," is the idea of a pervasive existence beyond time. It makes sense that you can never "dwell" in time, or even an age, since at some point a moment in time or an age begins and ends.

Post Reply

Return to “Calvinism, Arminianism & Open Theism”