OT Saul's Salvation and Fall From Grace?

dizerner

Re: OT Saul's Salvation and Fall From Grace?

Post by dizerner » Thu May 12, 2016 6:29 pm

remade wrote:
dizerner wrote: Yes. What we can't assume is that giving someone a new heart removes their ability to make it bad again. It's like God giving you a second chance—doesn't assure you will use it.
As I studied today in my personal readings, the fall from grace in Saul's life... perhaps setting up in I Samuel 13:8-14 in which Saul assumes the responsibilities of a priest... (Jesus assuredly can be and is prophet, priest and King)... and culminated in the tearing of Samuel's robe found in I Samuel 15.. I guess a sadness hit me all the more.

If I am honest, a Calvinistic view has appealed to me for many reasons, but all the reasons are because I feel less responsible for my response to God (Which I would admit, aren't the best reasons).

(1) If I am assuredly elect, then there is NOTHING I can do to lose my salvation which brings profound relief.

(2) If I am assuredly elect, then I no longer need to perform. This presupposes that any orthodox soteriological view suggests that performance is due on part of the Christian. What I mean by "perform," and the assurance and relief that comes from a Calvinist view, is that whether I'm a "good" or "bad" Christian, whether I am devout, always-church attending, good at reading my Bible, and good at confessing and repenting of sin or not, the Calvinist view brings assurance that says, "Even if you do 'fail', you're saved."

(3) If I am assuredly elect, then even the biggest of sins, and the longest of rebellions will always, utterly, and assuredly be met with an eventual repentance and return to grace; that brings profound relief.

Yet, these three truths may not be truths. And furthermore, the antitheses for the reprobate are chilling, disturbing, and devoid of any blessed assurance that apparently the Calvinist says that exists for the elect and the reprobate at the same time.

Just thinking out loud here. If it starts more conversation, I'll tune in.
Thank you for your honesty. It's rare and valuable that someone is humble enough to admit really what their thought processes are in this regard.

All Calvinists will claim these motives don't enter in at all, but when virtually every Calvinist that has shown any humility in a moment of candor admits to these motivations, it's hard not to project it onto the majority of them—that they are just not being entirely honest with themselves.

User avatar
remade
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:53 pm
Location: Idaho
Contact:

Re: OT Saul's Salvation and Fall From Grace?

Post by remade » Mon May 16, 2016 9:59 pm

Continuing in this discussion of God's sovereignty and human freedom - and how they interact with one another... AND as I continue to read in I Samuel, I've come across an interesting two verses that seem to raise questions concerning these matters again.

Consider I Samuel 16:13-14
13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers. And the Spirit of the Lord rushed upon David from that day forward. And Samuel rose up and went to Ramah.

14 Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the Lord tormented him.
For background information -- we should probably bear in mind that God is choosing David as a king for himself (see I Samuel 16:1; compared to God choosing Saul as a king chosen by Israel in I Samuel 8:22; also 8:6-9). It is interesting, because as for Saul, he seems to be the perfect candidate for an Arminian conversion as stated in previous posts... However, it is interesting that we hear nothing of David's thoughts or responses, merely just an acceptance from Samuel's anointing of Him in I Samuel 16. Is there significance compared to Saul's conversation with Samuel in I Samuel 9; it almost seems like reluctance on Saul's part (Who am I? A Benjaminite? I Samuel 9:21)

So we do see Saul, apparently on his own mind... relent and reject God's leadership slowly but surely in I Samuel 13-15. Yet the way that the Bible reads, as I made the note in David being God's choice, while Saul being Israel's choice, also compared with I Samuel 16:14; that it seems God has sent a harmful spirit to torture Saul, why? How? Is God the causal force, or are Saul's actions to blame for his soul which is now open to the torturous spirit? Is this Job all over again - where God is just permitting the enemy into Saul, because Saul is open to that? That would be more convenient to believe, but IS that idea present in the text?

Would love conversation...
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
- II CORINTHIANS 5:21 ESV

dizerner

Re: OT Saul's Salvation and Fall From Grace?

Post by dizerner » Tue May 17, 2016 10:13 pm

remade wrote:Continuing in this discussion of God's sovereignty and human freedom - and how they interact with one another... AND as I continue to read in I Samuel, I've come across an interesting two verses that seem to raise questions concerning these matters again.

Consider I Samuel 16:13-14
13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers. And the Spirit of the Lord rushed upon David from that day forward. And Samuel rose up and went to Ramah.

14 Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the Lord tormented him.
For background information -- we should probably bear in mind that God is choosing David as a king for himself (see I Samuel 16:1; compared to God choosing Saul as a king chosen by Israel in I Samuel 8:22; also 8:6-9). It is interesting, because as for Saul, he seems to be the perfect candidate for an Arminian conversion as stated in previous posts... However, it is interesting that we hear nothing of David's thoughts or responses, merely just an acceptance from Samuel's anointing of Him in I Samuel 16. Is there significance compared to Saul's conversation with Samuel in I Samuel 9; it almost seems like reluctance on Saul's part (Who am I? A Benjaminite? I Samuel 9:21)

So we do see Saul, apparently on his own mind... relent and reject God's leadership slowly but surely in I Samuel 13-15. Yet the way that the Bible reads, as I made the note in David being God's choice, while Saul being Israel's choice, also compared with I Samuel 16:14; that it seems God has sent a harmful spirit to torture Saul, why? How? Is God the causal force, or are Saul's actions to blame for his soul which is now open to the torturous spirit? Is this Job all over again - where God is just permitting the enemy into Saul, because Saul is open to that? That would be more convenient to believe, but IS that idea present in the text?

Would love conversation...
It's certainly not a righteous suffering of Job context, Saul's rebellion was as the sin of witchcraft and opened this door of judgment.

Post Reply

Return to “Calvinism, Arminianism & Open Theism”