Calvinism and the Middle Voice

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Homer
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Re: Calvinism and the Middle Voice

Post by Homer » Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:22 am

Hi Paidion,

Have you considered that Mounce is a Calvinist? I want to do some more investigating regarding the middle voice. Meanwhile I was looking at the comments in Newman and Nida's "A Translator's Handbook on Paul's Letter to the Romans" where I found an interesting comment regarding Romans 9:22:
In the translation of "ready" it is important to avoid the implication that these "objects of His wrath" were prepared to be destroyed. It is a matter of temporal proximity to destruction and not preparation which is in focus at this point.
Might this not be a reference to AD 70?

Another thing to consider; I have long believed it possible that God essentially gives up on some persons in this life (the Spirit will not contend with man forever). They have become so hardened that there is no hope of repentance. Paul seems to have alluded to this earlier:

Romans 1:28 (NASB)

28. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

Perhaps this is their preparation for destruction.

Something has to make sense here. God making them as objects of destruction from birth make no sense of His enduring them with patience.

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Paidion
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Re: Calvinism and the Middle Voice

Post by Paidion » Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:14 pm

Have you considered that Mounce is a Calvinist?
My assumption is that Mounce would not let his theology colour his teaching of Hellenistic Greek. Indeed, in general, I don't judge peoples' teachings by their associations, beliefs, or paradigms. Perhaps I am naiïve, but I trust people to be basically honest, unless they prove themselves otherwise.

When I was a Calvinist, I used Romans 9 as my chief proof text. I just read the chapter again a few minutes ago, and it sounds as if Paul was a Calvinist too! I would like to interpret it in such a way that would indicate he wasn't, but I just seem unable to do so.

I know that, throughout Romans 9-11, he is writing about religiously Jewish people versus the true Israelites who are servants of the Anointed One, and I think I understand the broad picture. It's just chapter 9 that bugs me.

So I freely admit that I'm still looking for a satisfactory, non-Calvinist explanation.
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: Calvinism and the Middle Voice

Post by Homer » Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:00 pm

Paidion,

You wrote:
My assumption is that Mounce would not let his theology colour his teaching of Hellenistic Greek. Indeed, in general, I don't judge peoples' teachings by their associations, beliefs, or paradigms. Perhaps I am naiïve, but I trust people to be basically honest, unless they prove themselves otherwise.
In this case I do think you are a tad bit naïve. We are all biased to some extent. Take for example the great effort to give eis
a causative meaning in Acts 2:38, "because of repentance". The NIV Theological Dictionary, in the appendix, describes the great effort to prove eis can have a causative meaning, an effort that has been a failure. I would not think the people who have attempted this are dishonest, they are convinced that eis must have the meaning "because of" in this place because of other considerations.

In my OP I wrote the following which reflects the opinion of John Peter Lange:
the word is actually used in this case as a verbal adjective; Paul does not say who the preparer is
See Luke 6:40, cited by Lange as a clear example of use as a verbal adjective:

Luke 6:40 (NASB)

40. A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained (katartismenos), will be like his teacher.

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Re: Calvinism and the Middle Voice

Post by Paidion » Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:29 pm

Hi Homer, you wrote:We are all biased to some extent. Take for example the great effort to give eis
a causative meaning in Acts 2:38, "because of repentance". The NIV Theological Dictionary, in the appendix, describes the great effort to prove eis can have a causative meaning, an effort that has been a failure. I would not think the people who have attempted this are dishonest, they are convinced that eis must have the meaning "because of" in this place because of other considerations.
Thank you for pointing out that particular example. This is the very FIRST time, I have ever heard of anyone trying to give "εις" a causative meaning. I looked at commentaries of Acts 2:38 and NONE of them suggested such a thing. In my own reading of Greek, I have frequently noticed that what follows the word is a result, or purpose. I checked with Lou and Nida's "Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains," and found that they give the following meanings or uses of the preposition together with NT examples:

to (extension)
into (extension)
on (location)
inside (location)
among (location)
in order to (purpose)
so that (result)
by (means)

The only way in which I would differ in the matter of Acts 2:38 is to say that a true baptism that accompanies repentance (change of heart and mind and submission to the Lordship of Christ) results in the FORSAKING of sin. The word "αφεσις" often means "departure" or "being set free from." The verbal form of the word is used of Jesus "leaving" the crowds to go up into the mountain to pray. I don't say that it NEVER means "forgiveness." But Jesus forgave sins while He walked this earth. It didn't require his death in order to do so. Nor does it require baptism. Of course, if we repent and are baptized, and begin to be freed from sin, forgiveness will naturally follow.

Second century writers understood the time of baptism as that of the regeneration of the person.

Looking up "εις" in my Online Bible Program, I was surprised to find that it did try to justify the idea of the preposition having a causative meaning in Acts 2:38, by using this example:
If you saw a poster saying "Jesse James wanted for robbery," "for" could mean Jesse is wanted so he can commit a robbery, or is wanted because he has committed a robbery. The latter sense is the correct one. So too in this passage, the word "for" signifies an action in the past. Otherwise, it would violate the entire tenor of the NT teaching on salvation by grace and not by works.
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: Calvinism and the Middle Voice

Post by Homer » Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:45 pm

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
Looking up "εις" in my Online Bible Program, I was surprised to find that it did try to justify the idea of the preposition having a causative meaning in Acts 2:38, by using this example:


If you saw a poster saying "Jesse James wanted for robbery," "for" could mean Jesse is wanted so he can commit a robbery, or is wanted because he has committed a robbery. The latter sense is the correct one. So too in this passage, the word "for" signifies an action in the past. Otherwise, it would violate the entire tenor of the NT teaching on salvation by grace and not by works.
Not a very good argument, determining the meaning of a Greek word from the meaning of an English word. Have you seen this diagram of the functions of Greek prepositions, by Dana and Mantey? Note the function of eis:

http://www.onthewing.org/user/Greek%20Prepositions.pdf

Could you take a look at the Greek in the LXX, Psalm 8:2? Is katartismenos, or a form of the verb there? I was looking in Kittle, vol. I, p. 475 where Kittle, if I understand his abbreviation, references the middle voice as meaning "to prepare for oneself" in reference to God. Jesus quoted this exactly in Matt. 21:16. I am trying to understand how this might explain the meaning in Romans 9:22.

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Re: Calvinism and the Middle Voice

Post by Paidion » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:46 pm

Greeting Homer,
In Matt 21:16 where Jesus quotes from Psalm 8:2, the word "κατηρτισω" is indeed an aorist middle indicative, and indeed should be translated as a middle:

Out of the mouth of infants and sucklings, you strengthen (or possibly "prepare") for yourself praise...

Yes, the impact of the middle voice come out by inserting the English phrase "for yourself." But this doesn't help at all in supporting the translation of Romans 9:22 as "vessels of wrath preparing themselves for destruction." For as I said before, the middle voice was not used in the reflexive sense. If Paul had intended the reflexive sense, he would have used the reflexive. I referred to Mounce as stating that the middle was not used as a reflexive, and you dismissed this by saying that Mounce is a Calvinist (I'd be interested in your evidence for this, as I could find nothing to confirm it by searching the internet). In any case, the same thing was stated by my Greek teachers in two consecutive years of Greek at St. John's college (a part of the University of Manitoba). One teacher was an Anglican priest, and undoubtedly was not a Calvinist. I have no reason to think the other one was either.

However, maybe you want to translate, "vessels of wrath preparing for themselves destruction as an outcome." I think that would be a valid translation if the verb were considered to be a middle rather than a passive. In fact, I think I can conscientiously go with that (to my relief). Yet, I am disturbed that no other translator so considers it.

Bible Hub gives 25 translations, all of which consider the verb to be a passive.
http://biblehub.com/romans/9-22.htm

Wouldn't we expect some translator somewhere to consider the verb to be a middle? I am unable to find any. Catholics are not Calvinists, and yet the Catholic Douay translation rendered the verb as a passive.
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: Calvinism and the Middle Voice

Post by Homer » Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:36 am

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
I referred to Mounce as stating that the middle was not used as a reflexive, and you dismissed this by saying that Mounce is a Calvinist (I'd be interested in your evidence for this, as I could find nothing to confirm it by searching the internet).
See here:

http://jmsmith.org/blog/reformedcalvini ... ally-like/

Perhaps unfair? I have also seen him referenced as a four point Calvinist, whatever that is.

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Paidion
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Re: Calvinism and the Middle Voice

Post by Paidion » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:46 am

Thank you, Homer. I notice the author of the article says concerning Mounce:
...he’s not afraid to let the text of Scripture challenge some Reformed/Calvinist doctrinal assumptions.
and
Kudos to Bill for being an example of true Biblical translation scholarship.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: Calvinism and the Middle Voice

Post by Homer » Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:02 am

Paidion,

Thought this might be of interest to you:
“In the very next verse (Romans 9:22) Paul told of the great patience God showed toward those who deserve wrath. And in the following chapter he discussed the liberty and responsibility of human beings. God’s freedom operates within a moral framework. Human logic cannot harmonize divine sovereignty and human freedom, but both are clearly taught in Scripture. Neither should be adjusted to fit the parameters of the other. They form an antimony that by definition eludes our best attempts at explanation.”
“The grammatical structure of vv. 22-24 is difficult. The NIV has chosen to separate the final clause of v. 22 along with all of v. 23 from the narrative both before and after. As a result, v. 24 would explain that even believers were at one time ‘objects of wrath.’ Even though God has mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy, those who turn to him in faith, both Jew and Gentile, find themselves called by God. Far from being an arbitrary despot, God allows those who believe to take their place as ‘objects of his mercy.’”
-Robert H. Mounce, Romans, New American Commentary, Broadman & Holman; 1995.

I'm thinking that the passage in Romans 9 is not about salvation (heaven or hell) at all, and that is actually about Israel and gentiles.

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Paidion
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Re: Calvinism and the Middle Voice

Post by Paidion » Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:35 pm

Thank you for sharing that, Homer.
You wrote:I'm thinking that the passage in Romans 9 is not about salvation (heaven or hell) at all, and that is actually about Israel and gentiles.
As I see it, your thinking is close to reality. However, I would qualify it a bit. I would say all of chapter 9, as well as 10 and 11, is about the Israel "according to the flesh" and the Israel of God (Gal 6:16). In chapter 11, Paul speaks of the Israel of God as an olive tree. God purified this "olive tree" by removing some branches, and grafting in branches from a wild olive tree. That is, God purified Israel by removing those that didn't really belong, leaving only "the remnant." Then He brought in gentiles who had submitted to the Anointed One of Israel. Those gentiles who were brought in, were now Israelites. The middle wall of partition (Eph 2:14) was broken down! Now there is just one true Israel—the Israel of God that includes both groups which are now unified.

Thus there was never a time that Israel ceased to exist. It wasn't "replaced by the church." Rather it was purified and it continued, and is now indistinguishable from the body of Christ, the Assembly of God that Christ established. If we are disciples of Jesus, we are Israelites.

Every true Christian is a true Jew.

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. (Romans 2:28,29 NKJV)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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