Calvinism and the Middle Voice

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Homer
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Re: Calvinism and the Middle Voice

Post by Homer » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:08 am

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
Cottrell seems to have thought of the middle voice according to the classical meaning—that the middle voice in some way affects the subject. However, Mounce affirms that this is never the reflexive idea. (Basics of Biblical Greek page 224). He wrote, "If the subject of a verb performs an action to itself, this requires the reflexive pronoun. Rather in the middle, the subject does the action of the verb to the direct object, and yet the action of the verb in some way affects the subject." Thus Mounce's word about the middle voice contradicts the idea that the subjects in Romans 9:22 "prepared themselves for destruction" as Cottrell affirms.
Ran onto this comment in an article by Glenn Peoples:
A similar thing is true of the middle voice, where a person is the object of a verb, and yet there is no other person who is clearly the subject.
In Romans 9:22 there is no subject regarding the preparation for destruction. We might think God is implied, but why did Paul leave God out? Couldn't it be because everywhere in the scriptures the actions of the persons are what bring the destruction on? And then in verse 23 where God has prepared the vessels of mercy, God is clearly the subject.

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Paidion
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Re: Calvinism and the Middle Voice

Post by Paidion » Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:39 pm

You comment from Glen Peoples does not require the middle voice to be reflexive (which it never is).
It would support the real way in which the middle is used—in this case that the vessels prepared for themselves "into" destruction (that is with destruction as a result of this preparation). However, if one takes this as a middle, there seems to be a word missing in the sentence. The sentence would read:

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath [who] prepared for themselves into destruction [that is with destruction resulting from their preparation], in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

If the middle were Paul's intention, then he omitted the Greek word for "who" (that I supplied in the sentence above. But "who" seems to be required in order to make sense in using the middle.
Paidion

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Re: Calvinism and the Middle Voice

Post by Homer » Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:04 pm

Paidion,

Would you agree that consistently throughout the scriptures the persons who are "prepared for destruction", however we may understand destruction, are responsible for being in that position? If so, then how do we reconcile Paul's statement with that fact?

My opinion is that it is safe to say Paul knew well the parable of the potter in Jeremiah 18 and had it in mind. And again I would say it is pertinent to Romans 9. In the passage we find a call to repentance which is meaningless unless the opportunity to repent is real. God is the destroyer, the destruction is collective, while the call to repentance is addressed to individuals whose behavior has brought about their condition. This fits very well, I think, with the idea that in Romans 9 Paul has Israel/gentiles in mind:

Jeremiah 18 (NASB)

18. The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord saying, 2. “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.” 3. Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. 4. But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make.

5. Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, 6. “Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. 7. At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8. if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9. Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10. if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11. So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, ‘Thus says the Lord, “Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.”’ 12. But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’

Perhaps we can say this satisfies the passive/middle voice issue: God is the subject, although implied, the vessels prepared for destruction are responsible for their being prepared because of their deeds are evil.

What do you think?

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Re: Calvinism and the Middle Voice

Post by Paidion » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:18 pm

I agree. We can reconcile Paul's statement with the fact, by taking it as middle voice in the way that I suggested.

All I am opposing is the idea that one can take the middle voice in the reflexive sense. This is an incorrect way of taking the middle voice as as all reputable Greek grammarians agree. As Mounce points out, "If the subject of the verb performs an action to itself, Greek requires the reflexive pronoun..." (Basics of Biblical Greek, p 224 "Classical Meaning of the Middle.")
Paidion

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Re: Calvinism and the Middle Voice

Post by Homer » Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:07 am

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
All I am opposing is the idea that one can take the middle voice in the reflexive sense. This is an incorrect way of taking the middle voice as as all reputable Greek grammarians agree. As Mounce points out, "If the subject of the verb performs an action to itself, Greek requires the reflexive pronoun..."
This evening I was looking for a book on my bookshelves when I came across a book I had forgotten. The book is titled "A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament" by Dana and Mantey. In Division II, "The Verb", pages 157-158 regarding the middle voice I found the following interesting statements:
It is scarcely possible to formulate a single definition of its basal function which could be applied to all its actual occurrences. No single principle can be found to cover all the cases for the "sphere of the middle was...not at all sharply delimited". (quote from Moulton)
The reflexive sense of the middle is comparatively rare; reflexive pronouns being usually employed with the active. This results from what is termed in comparative philology the "analytic tendency" in language. It has not, however, resulted in obliterating the use of the middle voice, for it still persists in modern Greek, though sometimes in combination with a reflexive pronoun or its equivalent.

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Paidion
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Re: Calvinism and the Middle Voice

Post by Paidion » Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:51 pm

Yes, the middle voice is used frequently in the New Testament, but not reflexively as Mounce clearly points out.

For example, if "I eat" were in the middle voice, it would mean "I eat for myself" and never "I eat myself."
Paidion

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Re: Calvinism and the Middle Voice

Post by Homer » Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:40 pm

Hi Paidion,
As Mounce points out, "If the subject of the verb performs an action to itself, Greek requires the reflexive pronoun..."
Dana and Mantey provide examples of the direct middle in the NT without a reflexive pronoun; here are two that are middle, reflexive, with no pronoun in the Greek:

Matthew 27:5 (NASB)

5. And he threw the pieces of silver into the temple sanctuary and departed; and he went away and hanged himself.


Hanged is the verb apegxato; there is no "himself" in the Greek.

Mark 7:4 (NASB)

4. and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the washing of cups and pitchers and copper pots.)

"They cleanse themselves" is the verb baptisontai, again no pronoun in the Greek.

Does Mounce say anything about these cases?

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Re: Calvinism and the Middle Voice

Post by Paidion » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:20 pm

I don't think either one of these is an example of using the middle voice reflexively.

EXAMPLE 1 Matthew 27:5 (NASB)
And he threw the pieces of silver into the temple sanctuary and departed; and he went away and hanged himself.

The last word in the Greek sentence is "απηγξατο" is indeed an aorist middle indicative. This is the only occurence of the word in the New Testament. Lexicons indicate that one of the meanings of the word itself (regardless of the voice) means "to hang oneself."

The Greek Lexicon of the Online Bible program:
1) to throttle, strangle, in order to put out of the way or kill
2) to hang one’s self, to end one’s life by hanging
Strongs Greek Lexicon
to strangle oneself off (i.e. to death)
I tried to verify what these lexicons say by looking up the word in the Septuagint of the OT as well as the Septuagint of the Apocrypha, but could find the word in neither one.

But then, one may ask, "If the word already includes the idea of oneself, why did Matthew use the middle voice?
I suggest he used it in the regular way and that the clause would be properly translated as:
"...he went away and hanged himself for himself." That is, he did it for himself in an attempt to escape his self-condemnation.

EXAMPLE 2 Mark 7:4 (NASB)

and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the washing of cups and pitchers and copper pots.

In this case some translations have ADDED "themselves," whereas most of them don't.
The following translations on my Online Bible Program add "themselves":
ASV, Rotherham, NASB, RSV, WEB, YLT

And these ones DON'T add "themselves":
AV, Darby, Douay, ESV, HCJB, LO, Murdoch, NKJV, Philips, R Webster, Williams.

For instance, the ESV has, "and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash."

Again the middle is used, and could be translated "they do not eat unless they wash for themselves." It would supposedly benefit them in the sense that they would be purified.
Paidion

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Re: Calvinism and the Middle Voice

Post by Homer » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:24 am

Paidion,

I'm puzzled why you would accept the view of Mounce and not Dana and Mantey, especially since Mounce's view could be seen as support for the Calvinist view.

Regardless, in your last post it appears you are making an argument from English translations of words. You wrote:
The last word in the Greek sentence is "απηγξατο" is indeed an aorist middle indicative. This is the only occurence of the word in the New Testament. Lexicons indicate that one of the meanings of the word itself (regardless of the voice) means "to hang oneself."
I agree it means "to hang oneself" regarding Judas. That is exactly the point, it means to hang oneself without using a pronoun in the Greek. And this is exactly what Cottrell was pointing out regarding the vessels in Romans 9:22.
Again the middle is used, and could be translated "they do not eat unless they wash for themselves." It would supposedly benefit them in the sense that they would be purified.
Sure it can be translated that way, but again there is no pronoun in the Greek, it is implied. Do you say it can not be implied in Romans 9:22? It appears you are making my point.
Your added words strike me as redundant.

From Dana and Mantey, regarding the Greek middle voice, a word of caution:
Here we approach one of the most distinctive and peculiar phenomena of the Greek language. It is impossible to describe it, adequately or accurately, in terms of English idiom, for the English knows no approximate parallel. It is imperative that the student abandon as far as possible, the English point of view and comprehend that of the Greek. We can never hope to express exactly the Greek middle voice by an English translation, but must seek to acclimate ourselves to its mental atmosphere, and feel its force, though we can not express it precisely.

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Re: Calvinism and the Middle Voice

Post by Paidion » Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:30 pm

I'm puzzled why you would accept the view of Mounce and not Dana and Mantey, especially since Mounce's view could be seen as support for the Calvinist view.
Mounce is a teacher of Greek. You seem to think he is trying to insert Calvinism into his grammar. I don't believe that is so. I think the man is perfectly honest when he says that the middle is not used reflexively. Indeed, there is absolutely no proof that it ever is—only conjecture.
Regardless, in your last post it appears you are making an argument from English translations of words.
I don't understand where you got this idea. Of course I use Greek lexicons (dictionaries) in my statements about Greek. If we don't use Greek lexicons (dictionaries) at all, how would we get anywhere in learning the Greek language?
I wrote:The last word in the Greek sentence is "απηγξατο" is indeed an aorist middle indicative. This is the only occurrence of the word in the New Testament. Lexicons indicate that one of the meanings of the word itself (regardless of the voice) means "to hang oneself."
Then you stated:
I agree it means "to hang oneself" regarding Judas. That is exactly the point, it means to hang oneself without using a pronoun in the Greek.
No, that is not the point at all. The lexicons are saying that the word ITSELF apart from the voice has the meaning of "hang oneself." It would have that meaning even if the word in this context were not in the middle voice but was in the active voice. It follows then that the middle voice was not used to make the word reflexive. Rather its reflexive nature in inherent in the verb itself, apart from voice. So why is the middle voice used in the verse? It's used in its normal way; he not only hung himself, but he did it FOR himself, and I suggested that the reason was to escape self-condemnation. I'll say it again. The middle voice is used NOT reflexively, not to indicate that one is doing something TO himself, but rather that he is doing something FOR himself.
I wrote:Again the middle is used, and could be translated "they do not eat unless they wash for themselves." It would supposedly benefit them in the sense that they would be purified.
And you replied:
Sure it can be translated that way, but again there is no pronoun in the Greek, it is implied. Do you say it can not be implied in Romans 9:22? It appears you are making my point.Your added words strike me as redundant.
No there is no Greek pronoun to translate as "themselves." But that is irrelevant, if you understand the use of the middle. Without my "added words" the meaning of the middle does not come out. That is why I added "for themselves" because that's how the middle is used. Thus my "added words" are not redundant since they are necessary in English to bring out the meaning of the middle voice. But instead, you and your sources are saying that the function of the middle voice is to make it reflexive, that is, that "themselves" is the object of the verb.

Here, unlike the other case, the reflexive idea in this particular verb is NOT inherent in the verb itself apart from the use of the middle voice. But since the middle voice IS used, then it is necessary to add "FOR themselves."
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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