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Heretics? - and now Greg Boyd!

Re: Heretics? - and now Greg Boyd!

Postby DanielGracely » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:35 pm

Steve 1750 asks:
God creates Eve with impulses built in her before she does anything, to tempt her to sin and then "allows" Satan the master deceiver of the universe to test her , and when Eve fails, God is outraged?


Hi Steve1750,
While God gives us the abilities to think, feel and choose, He never gives us what we think, feel, or choose. (If He did, God and man would be synonymous terms.) Therefore James is able to say that God tempts no one, but that every one is drawn away by his own lust.
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Re: Heretics? - and now Greg Boyd!

Postby RICHinCHRIST » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:53 pm

DanielGracely wrote:Steve 1750 asks:
God creates Eve with impulses built in her before she does anything, to tempt her to sin and then "allows" Satan the master deceiver of the universe to test her , and when Eve fails, God is outraged?


Hi Steve1750,
While God gives us the abilities to think, feel and choose, He never gives us what we think, feel, or choose. (If He did, God and man would be synonymous terms.) Therefore James is able to say that God tempts no one, but that every one is drawn away by his own lust.



I think Steve's point, if I'm following it, is that God, in His infinite knowledge, knew that Eve would sin in advance. Therefore, why would God create Adam and Eve if He was, at a future point, to become so outraged? I think when we follow this logic to its end, it gives us insight into the eternal purpose of God. If God created the human race with full knowledge that most of the human race would end up in eternal hell, why would He have bothered? Perhaps He saw the "few that find life" on the narrow path worth the immense amount of suffering and pain that would surface in this life and the next, but it seems to remain a valid question in my mind.

Also, after reading this thread, I thought another point was quite pertinent. Since God is so outraged over sin (which He most definitely is), why would He allow sinners in a fallen state, a state that God hates, to continue perpetually in such a state? I think of the many billions in an eternal hell cursing God and becoming more and more evil, and gradually losing all resemblance to the image of God eon after eon. Since God is omnipresent, He would have to put up with this reality. Many people say, "Hell is a God-forsaken place. God's presence is not there". This cannot be true. God is omnipresent, and He would therefore have to put up with all of these beast-like post-human creatures cursing His name and blaspheming throughout all the future ages of existence. Clearly, David said in Psalm 139 that there is no fleeing from God's presence, and even if he made his bed in Sheol, God would be there. Would God permit all of this suffering and sin to perpetuate through all eternity? Perhaps so, but I think it would contradict God's victory over sin, when Paul states:

If the process of death and degradation of the post-fall state continues perpetually throughout eternity, does God ever truly defeat and destroy death?
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Re: Heretics? - and now Greg Boyd!

Postby darinhouston » Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:14 am

DanielGracely wrote:Hi Darin,
If I understand you right, I think you’re raising the question (via an objection) that the form of knowledge the believer will have in his resurrected body will be greater in form than it is now, since Paul says our knowledge now is incomplete, but one day will become complete. And I would agree with the basic premise that the believer’s knowledge is now incomplete, yet one day will become complete.

However, I don’t personally feel that the context of Paul’s remarks is about our needing a greater form of knowledge in order that our knowledge might become complete. Rather, I think Paul is referring to complete accuracy of knowledge, and in accordance to the form of knowledge God created in Adam, which God always intended man to have.

***

Finally, I might agree that in heaven we are not under a fiery trial to abstain from sin. But I do think the essence of man—his very being, in fact—is Choice (since even the act of thinking cannot escape choice), and that therefore in some sense we will always have the ability to choose right or wrong. But I think we will find our circumstances much different in heaven, and therefore temptation very minimal. I would liken the present temptation to the ease of grabbing (right before supper) a snickers candy bar out of the cupboard door, whereas—in a future when we are present with Christ, and when Satan, his minions, and even the Adamic part of our form-nature is not present—the snickers bar would feel like it was up at the top of Mt. Everest. Accessible? Theoretically, yes. But why the bother?


I guess I agree with "some" of that. Your distinction between fullness of knowledge and "form" of knowledge is lost on me, I'm afraid. As to the candy bar, my view is that such a temptation will not be enjoyable to us in eternity, but the joy and fulfillment from such an exercise will be available to us as if it were without the taint of sin (exactly how, I do not know).
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Re: Heretics? - and now Greg Boyd!

Postby Ian » Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:54 am

Steve wrote:

What a horrendous ministry this man Todd has! He makes his opponents look saintly by contrast.


I kind of warmed to him. Here he is street preaching. He dealt with this woman brilliantly in my opinion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_6HfEoORuM
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Re: Heretics? - and now Greg Boyd!

Postby jasonmodar » Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:17 pm

Ian wrote:I kind of warmed to him. Here he is street preaching. He dealt with this woman brilliantly in my opinion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_6HfEoORuM


I've seen this and other videos of him open air preaching. He handles himself very well usually, like he did in this video. Todd is a big turn off for me when he's behind the camera in his studio doing Wretched. He comes across as, well, wretched a lot of the time! But when he's out in the streets with people he carries himself with much more humility.

I also found it interesting that in the video you posted he laments how he used to attack people with different theological beliefs. Seems like that still may be an issue for him.
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Re: Heretics? - and now Greg Boyd!

Postby steve » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:24 pm

My comment was based upon limited familiarity with his ministry—strictly from studio stuff and radio. He may have a valid ministry on the street. Hard to say, since I have never followed him in that genre.
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Re: Heretics? - and now Greg Boyd!

Postby Ian » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:00 am

I feel the same way Jason.

Out on the street he seems the real deal. In the studio he takes on a showman guise which for me jarrs with the seriousness of his message.

Edit - here he is in an interview being nothing but convincing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n0b3UmAF50

He says that the title "wretched" refers to himself and his otherwise lostness, but that doesn`t come across at all unless you know that`s what he means. It can`t be good that you have to dig deeper to find that out, because most people will not be inclined to take the trouble to.
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