Hell - Justice vs Persuasion

[steve7150]

I guess we may also need to define "spiritual blessings in Christ".

If there was some noticeable difference between the world and the church (besides service attendance), we may be able to embrace your ideas. But... I don't see a huge difference.

Are you following me? Not trying to be difficult, just trying to think through this. I'd like to believe what you're saying, I really would.

If you visit a hospital or nursing home, the end of the road looks very simular for those that have held the faith and those that haven't.





I agree with you and if anything it appears the wicked often prosper in this life and the corruption referenced by Paul is something burned off in the afterlife "lake of fire." I have never heard of any reports Hugh Heffner has trouble sleeping at night from his ex girls or that Hitler was tormented with guilt and in fact Stalin on his deathbed was planning yet another purge against his enemies after killing 30 million of his countrymen.Yes the wicked suffer corruption but i think the sin debt is still due and payable on judgment day and if God simply dismisses all charges regardless of the offenses he would'nt be a just God.

[Todd]

Thanks Todd.

On the other side of that coin though, to sow spiritual things meant that you were killed, rejected, lonely, tortured. This is also seems to be common in the N.T. For that matter, in many places, to sow spiritual things means the same thing today.

I guess we may also need to define "spiritual blessings in Christ".

RV,

Gal 5:22-24
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

This passage defines spiritual blessings in Christ. We need not look at the outward appearance and place any true eternal value in wealth, fame or power in this life. This is not what Christians should strive for; rather, the Christian, regardless of material possessions or health condition can enjoy the peace that passes understanding. The one who sows to the flesh and reaps corruption may suffer guilt, shame, anxiety, broken relationships, distrust, etc.

If there was some noticeable difference between the world and the church (besides service attendance), we may be able to embrace your ideas. But... I don't see a huge difference.

Are you following me? Not trying to be difficult, just trying to think through this. I'd like to believe what you're saying, I really would.

If you visit a hospital or nursing home, the end of the road looks very simular for those that have held the faith and those that haven't.

It is true that the "rain falls equally upon the just and the unjust", but those who follow Christ and have trouble in this life can work through the tough times with peace in their hearts and joy in their spirit because the Holy Spirit is blessing them with these fruits.

Todd

[Todd]

I have never heard of any reports Hugh Heffner has trouble sleeping at night from his ex girls or that Hitler was tormented with guilt and in fact Stalin on his deathbed was planning yet another purge against his enemies after killing 30 million of his countrymen.Yes the wicked suffer corruption but i think the sin debt is still due and payable on judgment day and if God simply dismisses all charges regardless of the offenses he would'nt be a just God.

God is not a torturer. Not even for a second. This is what I believe. God is merciful and loving. People will reap what they sow in this life, but once they are dead the body decays and returns to the dust. Christ will return, and the dead in Christ will rise first, then everyone else will follow and be delivered from the bondage of corruption and enjoy the same glorious liberty as the children of God.

Rom 8:18-23
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

Todd

[steve7150]

God is not a torturer. Not even for a second. This is what I believe. God is merciful and loving. People will reap what they sow in this life, but once they are dead the body decays and returns to the dust. Christ will return, and the dead in Christ will rise first, then everyone else will follow and be delivered from the bondage of corruption and enjoy the same glorious liberty as the children of God.







I agree God is not a torturer, justice does not include torturing but it does mean people are accountable for their behavior and if there is no price to pay in the afterlife for perpetuating evil then i can't see where justice is served. I don't know in what form justice may be in the afterlife but perhaps restitution is part of it.
The peace that believers should have is not evident in the average Christian population as their divorce rate is the same as the general population and it appears to me they have similar levels of anxiety as the general population.
Ask anyone and they will tell you this life is unfair and while God gives believers strength to get through tribulation many Christians never have that opportunity because they just die or get killed like any unbeliever and sometimes even more as they often are specific targets of evil as Jesus was.

[Todd]

The peace that believers should have is not evident in the average Christian population as their divorce rate is the same as the general population and it appears to me they have similar levels of anxiety as the general population.

Why do you suppose that Christians and non-Christians have similar stats? Could it be that many Christians don't practice their faith as they should, but instead allow the desires of flesh and selfishness to rule their hearts? Christians are not immune to temptation and will reap what they sow in this life just like everyone else; God is no respecter of persons.

Ask anyone and they will tell you this life is unfair and while God gives believers strength to get through tribulation many Christians never have that opportunity because they just die or get killed like any unbeliever and sometimes even more as they often are specific targets of evil as Jesus was.

But the Good News is that Christ has conquered death for every man; death will be abolished, all will be subject to Him, and God will be all-in-all. These truths are intended to comfort each of us.

Todd

[RV]

The one who sows to the flesh and reaps corruption may suffer guilt, shame, anxiety, broken relationships, distrust, etc.

Could it be that many Christians don't practice their faith as they should, but instead allow the desires of flesh and selfishness to rule their hearts?

Let's think through this for a moment.

I have had guilt simply from a lack of understanding over things. Not because the action or thought was wrong.

A lot of Christians feel shame over a divorce that they may not have caused. A child may have gone wild, and maybe not because the parents were bad parents. A lot of people feel shame over that.

When someone's parent, child, spouse or friend is in the hospital and they're not sure they are going to make it, there is usually anxiety.

Broken relationships sometimes happen when one of the parties is trying with everything they have to make it work.

I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

I have thought this way before and it drives you mad. You live in a constant state of, WHAT AM I DOING WRONG!!

This thought broken down looks like this:

If you're having any of the following symptoms (guilt, shame, anxiety, broken relationships, distrust and many more) you are in sin and you're doing something wrong.

When a friend comes to you and says, "I'm feeling anxiety over this job change, I'm not sure if it's the right move"; do you say, well pal, sorry but you must be sowing to the flesh!

Again, I'm just trying to think through this. Your view (on hell) may be true, but I don't think we can draw that conclusion based on some of this stuff.

[Todd]

The one who sows to the flesh and reaps corruption may suffer guilt, shame, anxiety, broken relationships, distrust, etc.

Could it be that many Christians don't practice their faith as they should, but instead allow the desires of flesh and selfishness to rule their hearts?

Let's think through this for a moment.

I have had guilt simply from a lack of understanding over things. Not because the action or thought was wrong.

A lot of Christians feel shame over a divorce that they may not have caused. A child may have gone wild, and maybe not because the parents were bad parents. A lot of people feel shame over that.

When someone's parent, child, spouse or friend is in the hospital and they're not sure they are going to make it, there is usually anxiety.

Broken relationships sometimes happen when one of the parties is trying with everything they have to make it work.

I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

I have thought this way before and it drives you mad. You live in a constant state of, WHAT AM I DOING WRONG!!

This thought broken down looks like this:

If you're having any of the following symptoms (guilt, shame, anxiety, broken relationships, distrust and many more) you are in sin and you're doing something wrong.

When a friend comes to you and says, "I'm feeling anxiety over this job change, I'm not sure if it's the right move"; do you say, well pal, sorry but you must be sowing to the flesh!

Again, I'm just trying to think through this. Your view (on hell) may be true, but I don't think we can draw that conclusion based on some of this stuff.

RV,

You are correct that sometimes bad things happen to good people due to someone else's sin. This just underscores why sin is so destructive because it not only affects the sinner, it can also affect others that get caught in its wake. This is another reason why the apostles felt the urgent need to preach the Gospel and lead as many to Christ as possible.

The main point I am making is that one who is upright in heart and deed will not feel condemned by what he does.

Rom 14:22
Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

1 John 3:21
Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God.

It is also much more involved than just guilt or shame. One who is corrupted by sin has been "given over to a debased mind" (Rom 1:28) and may find himself involved in a full array of destructive behaviors.

Gal 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like;

Todd

[steve7150]

1 John 3:21
Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God.

It is also much more involved than just guilt or shame. One who is corrupted by sin has been "given over to a debased mind" (Rom 1:28) and may find himself involved in a full array of destructive behaviors.

Gal 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like;

Todd




All these things are true but i believe the natural results of corruption and sin both individually and because sin entered the world. I don't think that simply dying absolves anyone from their sin debt which is owed to God. In this life repentence and restitution is necessary and if one dies in their sins i can't imagine why these things at the very least would not be necessary in the next age.

[RV]

OK Todd... let me make sure I understand where you're coming from.

Both believers and non-believers will not be facing any kind of judgment after death?

All judgement that takes place, takes place here and now?

[Todd]

OK Todd... let me make sure I understand where you're coming from.

Both believers and non-believers will not be facing any kind of judgment after death?

All judgement that takes place, takes place here and now?

RV,

For the most part, yes. Here is a post where this is addressed.

http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=3202

Todd