The "Evangelical Universalist" is Revealed! (interview)

[steve]

These views do make sense—which is why Job's friends, who were all wise philosophers, held them. The Book of Job serves to teach that there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in our philosophy.

If your view (and that of Job's counselors) is correct, then those who suffer most must be the most deserving of suffering. Thus, a godly man, like Richard Wurmbrandt or Watchman Nee—both of whom were tortured for decades, and the latter died of his abuse in prison, were really very bad men. This is the unchariotable judgment that Job's friends were compelled by their theology to conclude about Job as well. If we did not have the scriptures to correct us, we might justly hold such positions ourselves.

[Todd]

These views do make sense—which is why Job's friends, who were all wise philosophers, held them. The Book of Job serves to teach that there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in our philosophy.

If your view (and that of Job's counselors) is correct, then those who suffer most must be the most deserving of suffering. Thus, a godly man, like Richard Wurmbrandt or Watchman Nee—both of whom were tortured for decades, and the latter died of his abuse in prison, were really very bad men. This is the unchariotable judgment that Job's friends were compelled by their theology to conclude about Job as well. If we did not have the scriptures to correct us, we might justly hold such positions ourselves.

Steve,

You misunderstand me. I have not said "bad things happen to bad people", which is what your post implies. I acknowledge that it is not uncommon for those who have no faith in Christ to be successful in business and live a life in good health. And it is also true, as you point out, that many who are faithful suffer greatly. But what is going on in the hearts of these folks? Do they have peace with God? Is there joy in their occupations and relationships? Can they rest well at night knowing what they are are doing with their life?

What I have said is that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin (John 16:8), God will give the carnal-minded over to corruption and a debased mind (Gal 6:8, Rom 1:28), the governing authorities are God's ministers executing wrath against those who do evil (Rom 13:4), and that some sins lead to a premature death (1 John 5:16). It is also true that the sin of one person may have devastating effects on someone else which underscores the need for evangelism to stop the spread of sin, unrighteousness, oppression and injustice. The scriptures state more than once that "you reap what you sow," and I believe it.

Todd

[Homer]

Hi Todd,

You asked:

But what is going on in the hearts of these folks? Do they have peace with God? Is there joy in their occupations and relationships? Can they rest well at night knowing what they are are doing with their life?

I think in many cases they do. I recall the story of a corrupt politician who, when he was dying, was asked if he had any regrets. If he had his life to live over, would he change anything? He responded "not a thing!". I think you overlook the fact that, without the Holy Spirit, people are left with only their conscience to guide them, and the human conscience is easily trained to keep quiet.

God bless, Homer

[steve]

The scriptures state more than once that "you reap what you sow," and I believe it.

So do I. But there is no guarantee that what is reaped in this life will have any connection to what is sown here. There is a day of "harvest" at the end, and the reaping of the consequences of of our lives will be felt in the next life. The verse that says people will reap what they sow (Galatians 6:8) specifically says the reaping options are "corruption" and "eternal life." These can as easily be seen as experiences in the next life as in this one. Paul does not mention a troubled conscience among the things reaped (though there may be one in many cases), but he describes objective circumstances.

[Todd]

Paul does not mention a troubled conscience among the things reaped (though there may be one in many cases), but he describes objective circumstances.

Rom 2
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

Rom 13:4-5
4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake.

One must also acknowledge that hard work, ethical conduct, kindness, and acts of service tend to have positive results; contrarily, laziness, cheating, rudeness, and selfishness tend to have negative results. One tends to reap what he sows in this regard.

Todd

[Todd]

I think you overlook the fact that, without the Holy Spirit, people are left with only their conscience to guide them, and the human conscience is easily trained to keep quiet.

To a certain extent, this is true. But I think the Holy Spirit is at work in the hearts of all men, and He does not rest day or night convicting the world of sin.

Todd

[SteveF]

Todd wrote

But what is going on in the hearts of these folks? Do they have peace with God? Is there joy in their occupations and relationships? Can they rest well at night knowing what they are are doing with their life?

Act 14:15 "Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men, of like nature with you, and we bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them.
Act 14:16 In past generations he allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways.
Act 14:17 Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness."


Hi Todd, I want to understand how you would square the passage above with your view. Paul was talking to people who worshiped false gods. Rather than point out to them how miserable they were he said that God testified to them by filling their hearts with food and gladness (joy).

Paul’s intent was for them to turn to the Living God and have the proper allegiance. If the message of the gospel is simply to make you joyful then Paul seems to have missed the boat here. Not only did he fail to mention this as the intent of the gospel but he made a point of telling them how happy God had already made them.

Steve

[Todd]

Act 14:15 "Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men, of like nature with you, and we bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them.
Act 14:16 In past generations he allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways.
Act 14:17 Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness."


Hi Todd, I want to understand how you would square the passage above with your view. Paul was talking to people who worshiped false gods. Rather than point out to them how miserable they were he said that God testified to them by filling their hearts with food and gladness (joy).

I see this passage as parallel to the following...

Acts 17
29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

Paul says that there has been a change in the way God deals with mankind than He did with previous generations. "But now," says Paul, God "commands all men everywhere to repent." This He does, I believe, through the convicting work of the Holy Spirit which was poured out upon all flesh. As I said in a previous post, the Spirit does not rest day or night convicting the sinner to repent. This applies to every person in every corner of the world. John the Baptist was speaking of the convicting work of the Holy Spirit when he said, "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." John, urging people to repent, was saying that the convicting work of the Holy Spirit is like an unquenchable fire.

If the message of the gospel is simply to make you joyful...

The Gospel not only makes us joyful, but it is also intended to free mankind from oppression and injustice by bringing the evil-doers to repentance. The following is a quote from a friend of mine who holds the same view that I do.

Now, here's what I think really distinguishes my view from most on this forum: I believe that one day (what is referred to as the "last day" in John's Gospel), Jesus is going to return bodily from heaven and will resurrect all who have died (as well as change all who are still alive), and that by this instantaneous change all people will be made both immortal and sinless. What does this have to do with the cross? Well, I understand the cross to be the pledge of this universal subjection to Christ, since it is because of his sacrificial death that God highly exalted Jesus and gave him all authority in heaven and on earth (Matt 28:18; Phil 2:8-11; cf. Daniel 7:13-14) - which includes the power and authority to subject all people to himself and thus reconcile all to God (Col 1:20; Phil 3:20-21).

Todd

[steve7150]

Now, here's what I think really distinguishes my view from most on this forum: I believe that one day (what is referred to as the "last day" in John's Gospel), Jesus is going to return bodily from heaven and will resurrect all who have died (as well as change all who are still alive), and that by this instantaneous change all people will be made both immortal and sinless





Todd,
It sounds like God's wrath also is applicable to a future time not just the present,
"you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath" Rom 2.5
"Jesus who rescues us from the coming wrath" 1 Thes 1.10
"Put to death , therefore whatever belongs to your earthly nature , sexual immortality, impurity,lust, evil desires and greed which is idolatry. Because of these the wrath is coming." Col 3.5-6

[SteveF]

I see this passage as parallel to the following...

Acts 17
29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

Paul says that there has been a change in the way God deals with mankind than He did with previous generations. "But now," says Paul, God "commands all men everywhere to repent." This He does, I believe, through the convicting work of the Holy Spirit which was poured out upon all flesh. As I said in a previous post, the Spirit does not rest day or night convicting the sinner to repent. This applies to every person in every corner of the world. John the Baptist was speaking of the convicting work of the Holy Spirit when he said, "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." John, urging people to repent, was saying that the convicting work of the Holy Spirit is like an unquenchable fire.

Thanks for the reply Todd. I understand the "but now" to simply refer to the fact that Gentiles, and not Jews only, are fully included in both the need to repent and the blessing of the covenant.

Just so I understand you correctly. Are you saying you think Paul's message is in fact different than yours and the reason is that you understand the "but now" statement to mean that God no longer shows his Goodness to unconverted people, hence granting them joy? (see aslo Luke 6:35, Matt 5:44-45). If I'm understanding you correctly then what is your biblical support for this? Also, if there has been a change then why would God mess up a good thing if hell is as you describe it? It seems that God has demonstrated he can grant people joy apart from the Gospel.

The principle reason God gives us new hearts is so we can obey Him (Ez 36:25-27, Jer 31:33-34). It seems evident to me that the core of Paul's message was turning to God from sin, not you're unhappy and I have the resolution for you.

Steve