Conditional Immortality Links

[Jill]

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[Suzana]

One observation about many instances of Gehenna (translated as "hell" in the various KJV variations) Jesus never condemned any specific person or group to a punishment in Gehenna. I think the closest to this was where Jesus said that some types of wrong doers were worthy of the Gehenna fire.

A bit too close for comfort - Jesus' warning to the Scribes and Pharisees sounds fairly ominous to me!

Mat 23:33 "Serpents! Brood of vipers! How shall you* escape from the judgement of gehenna?

But I agree that this was probably a reference to the coming judgement on Jerusalem.

Thanks for posting the link, Mike; it looks like you've put a bit of work into that.

[auggybendoggy]

RND,
I do believe the Son of God had a dual nature. The nature of man (the flesh) is dead but in Jesus (the spirit) is alive. If one follows one the other will follow. In other words if one invests into his flesh his spirit is dead. If one invests into his spirit then his flesh will live.

I also subscribe to the notion that believers have a dual nature of flesh and spirit.

Aug

[RND]

I also subscribe to the notion that believers have a dual nature of flesh and spirit.

The devils "believe" in Christ, do they have a dual nature? Also, Satan said to the woman, "You won't die." Was he telling Eve the truth?

[auggybendoggy]

The issue of the demons (devils) beliving "in" Christ is an issue James raises concerning faith. Is your view of James that demons have some measure of faith, which is a gift of God?

Of course the devil was lying on more than one account as well. Did they die? The question was not "when" they will die but if they will. So I believe indeed satan was lying.

Is this issue off topic? Seems so but perhaps it's related to CI. I don't like to hijack threads. So perhaps if this is off topic we can discuss further on another thread.

God Bless,
Auggy

[RND]

The issue of the demons (devils) beliving "in" Christ is an issue James raises concerning faith. Is your view of James that demons have some measure of faith, which is a gift of God?

No, demons have no faith "in" the Son of God, but then again it is obvious it doesn't take faith in recognizing the Son of God.

What did the devils say when Jesus cast them out of the Demoniac?

Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Of course the devil was lying on more than one account as well. Did they die? The question was not "when" they will die but if they will. So I believe indeed satan was lying.

Of course he was lying. Adam and Eve both died.

Is this issue off topic? Seems so but perhaps it's related to CI. I don't like to hijack threads. So perhaps if this is off topic we can discuss further on another thread.

God Bless,
Auggy

I think studying and understanding Genesis 3:4 is vital in helping to understand the whole notion of inherent immortality (duality). If Satan is right, that is that Eve will not die, then God can be seen as the liar because God told Adam if he disobeyed he would die. If Satan is lying (when isn't Satan lying) then God is telling Adam the truth that Adam's sin of disobedience would indeed lead to actual physical death.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

[auggybendoggy]

LOL Rnd, "of course he was lying"...

I agree with much of what you said.

My point was about the demons is that they are dead. Their believing in Christ is not ANY measure of faith. Simply because I believe Christians have dual natures (tension of flesh and spirit) that does not demand I think "intellectual ascent" is the reason they have dual natures.

I am fare more reformed in my thinking on these matters.

Aug

[RND]

My point was about the demons is that they are dead.

Well, soon to be dead.

"...they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?"

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

[Glenn]

I can understand that, & that it would be desirable to have all the dead being raised, judged and then (the wicked) annihilated, but I still don’t see the need or validity of them being tortured first.

I agree entirely, Suzanna.

(By the way, hi everyone - Glenn Peoples here)

Edward Fudge says (in person) that his take on annihilationism allows for the possibility of the lost being punished to whatever extent justice requires before they are no more - but his view doesn't require it. It just leaves open that possibility.

I don't believe this will happen. In fact I think it introduces considerable confusion over what the punishment for sin really is. The punishment is death, or loss of life. So no amount of other kinds of unpleasantness will do anything at all as far as justice is concerned. If the annihilationist case draws so much strength (and it does) from the biblical proclamation that the wages of sin is death, we really undermine that strength by suggesting that the lost might receive the wages of sin before they are finally destroyed. This just caves into the traditionalist notion that the wages of sin is extended suffering.

[RickC]

Not exactly on-topic.

Glenn,

Greetings, and Welcome to this forum!
I've been recommending your podcasts at various sites.
I don't really "debate" these issues any longer, but continue in my studies.
Your lectures have been quite helpful.

Thanks, and welcome again!