Gehenna - Literal or Figurative?

[steve]

Jerry,

You wrote:

I wonder why Jesus was so serious with his comments. He must have gone crazy! He didn't need to express himself with all of that hyperbole. He shouldn't have been so hard on those Pharisees. Similarly with Paul. Why was he warning us that we could be cut right out after we'd just been grafted in? Since in the end we'll all be one big happy family, there's no need to get so intense about these things. There's no concern for fearing the second death. Lake of fire, nothing. John should have reminded us that we all get back together in the end! What was he thinking anyway? Silly guy. Happy thoughts, happy thoughts. Too bad he didn't have the self-help books we have available today.

Even if Gehenna happened to be a reference to the judgment of Jerusalem in AD 70, I hardly see how any of your above comments would be justified. I should think that the lake of fire would still be something to be feared. You seem also to object to the idea of God having "one big, happy family." Are you on the same page with God on this? I thought this was God's very ambition.

I am not sure what self-help books might have to do with this discussion, but there seems to be a very important element absent from your reckoning.

Your comments seem to reveal the conviction that, if we all end up in heaven, then there is nothing else to be concerned about. Is it not important to you that God should be glorified in His creatures? If people do not follow Christ in this life, then they are robbing God of His due. If we are as concerned for the glory of God as Jesus and Paul were, we would see a great disaster in the case of persons for whom Christ died squandering the one temporal lifetime that God has given them in which to glorify Him and to be useful and pleasing to Him.

In your view, apparently, these are small matters, so long as everyone gets to heaven eventually, after robbing God of His glory throughout their lifetimes. You speak as if this would be an acceptable "happy ending." I don't think Christ or the apostles shared your value system. They thought it to be essential to serve Christ in this lifetime, and a horrendous tragedy if someone would fail to do so. I agree with them—and this would be so whether all people eventually ended up in heaven or not. At least, in that case, God would ultimately be glorified in those who had denied this to Him throughout their lifetimes. That sounds like some consolation in a bad situation.

[Ian]

Hi Steve

Was not Jerry just using sarcastic irony?

[Paidion]

Jerry, Jesus warned against Gehenna. Paul was totally familiar with the teachings of Christ, often stating, "The Lord said this", but "I say this", etc.

Why do you suppose that Paul in all 12 letters, (or possibly 13) never mentioned Gehenna even once? One would think that the great apostle to the Gentiles would have something to say about Gehenna, since it was such a serious place or state to avoid.

[steve]

Hi Ian,

Yes, I am sure that Jerry was using sarcastic irony. However, this was his rhetorical way of expressing his views. It was not difficult (and seldom is, when people use sarcasm) to discern the opinion he was putting forward. What I was responding to was the opinion that he was expressing through that rhetorical means. His statements do not convey anything, if not the sentiments to which I was responding.

[steve7150]

You said you found several things to be amazing, what i find amazing is that folks who believe in eternal hell think that anything less then eternal punishment is no punishment at all.

What do you base this statement on? Has someone said that or is this only your impression?

What I have observed is that many clear statements of facts concerning God (fact: that which has been done) and statements about what He will do in the future are ignored, denied, explained away, or discounted based on what a person believes about something in scripture of a broad and general nature. For example, the statement that "God is love" is taken to mean, in a person's opinion, whatever it is thought or felt to mean and the facts are made to fit opinion. The scriptures also say "God is a consuming fire" (a fire that utterly destroys), and both statements about God are true. A well known rule of interpretation is that the clear statements of scripture should be used to interpret the less clear but this rule is often turned on its head. The God of the New Testament is the same as the God of the old.




Hi Homer,
My remark that folks who believe in eternal hell seem to feel any less punishment is no punishment at all is in fact my impression based on the responses on this forum. Take our friend Jerry, although i acknowledged God's wrath and that unbelievers will be punished, he completely ignored my response and implied i think everyone will waltz into heaven and be one big happy family, Someone else once said that if he knew he would be punished for only 10,000 years he would be getting drunk right away, so yes it's my impression.
As you said God is love & and a consuming fire therefore we need to combine the attributes of God to try to understand what judgment might mean, which could be a fire that chastises and purifies as an expression of God's love.

[steve]

The idea that anything less than eternal punishment is no punishment at all is also blatantly declared in many of the books I have recently read defending the traditional view. The idea expressed in the statement, "if I knew I would be punished for only 10,000 years, I would be getting drunk right away" is disingenuous and false. I would be willing to bet $1000 that none of our readers here would go out and get drunk if it was their understanding that doing so would cause them to spend one month in the city jail, with television and internet. Much less would they do so if the assured penalty was ten years in the federal penitentiary. Now 10,000 years in hellfire—or even one day in hellfire—would be sufficient to dissuade any intelligent person from committing almost any sin. Of course, I don't believe that the threat of hell is God's preferred motivation for people turning from sin.

[Michelle]

Hi Steve7150
You wrote:

You said you found several things to be amazing, what i find amazing is that folks who believe in eternal hell think that anything less then eternal punishment is no punishment at all.

What do you base this statement on? Has someone said that or is this only your impression?

Homer, I thought, perhaps quite incorrectly, that this is what you were getting at when you started this thread. You never came back to it to explain where you were going with your question, and I made the assumption you were leading up to the argument that anything less than eternal punishment was unjust because sin is an infinite offense.

[Homer]

Hi Michelle,

The point I was trying to make in the other thread was that the heinousness of any wrong act is measured by the value, or worth, of the victim, and not so much by act itself. The argument is made that "finite" sin can not be punished infinitely, but I do not see how sin can shown to be finite, or quantified in any way. The time it takes to commit a sin certainly is no measure, and how does one measure the effects of a sin?

I recognize that there are many degrees of punishment, temporal and otherwise. God even chastises us in this life who are His adopted children.

My concern is truth, not what I want to be true. And the question in my mind of paramount importance is this: did Jesus teach that people must repent before time runs out, before it is too late, and an irrevocable judgement comes? I believe he plainly did. For example, the parable of the ten virgins tells of five who are unprepared when the bridegroom comes. They are shut out. The door will not be opened for them though they beg to be let in. And Jesus says this is what the kingdom of heaven is like. And there are many other similar warnings.

The punishment of the lost after judgement is of secondary importance to me. Whether it is literally eternal punishment in the lake of fire (which I strongly doubt, and see as a sort of strawman for the universalist), separation from God, outer darkness, or annihilation I can not say. I think an unbiased study will be about even in support for either of the two sides. I am sure of one thing: God will not act unjustly.

[steve7150]

The argument is made that "finite" sin can not be punished infinitely, but I do not see how sin can shown to be finite, or quantified in any way. The time it takes to commit a sin certainly is no measure, and how does one measure the effects of a sin?





I don't want to appear to minimize sin but calling it "infinite" is giving it an attribute that God has alone. Why should sin have a greater attribute than "love" or praise or worship or bearing fruit or faith. For example re faith, we are told to be faithful until the end , therefore it's not infinite and Jesus called "love" the greatest command yet love can grow cold. Jesus told the adulteress to "go and sin no more" yet if her previous sins were infinite why would he say that? Does'nt love cover a multitude of sins, so would'nt that make love greater then sin?
In Acts 3.22 Peter warns people to repent , but then he closes by saying "until the times of restoration of all things" , which sounds to me like the purpose of judgment is ultimately for restoration. You look at this as a strawman argument Homer but it's part of the bible and i would think if eternal hell/darkness/separation were true then the Apostles who preached and every believer who truly believes this should be warning people non-stop, 24/7.

[jerry62]

@Steve,
I'm very surprised at all of the assumptions you are making about my convictions, especially for someone as studied as yourself. It's a good thing that you're not the primary teacher for explaining the purpose and meaning of my words. I'm merely someone who truly wants to make every effort to understand the truth about what the Scripture says and what God is saying about these matters. Obviously I'm not minimizing the desire that God has for everyone to come to him for life. God has given mankind freedom (wouldn't you say?), and there's no indication that He is in the business of forcing men to serve him. As ambassadors for Christ, we should desire to engage those who are not followers when the appropriate opportunities arise. Understanding how to properly love others is of great importance, but we also must be cognizant of sin and continue to submit all things under Christ's authority to the best of our ability.

@Paidion,
Are you really making an argument that Paul doesn't believe in an eternal punishment because he doesn't use the word Gehenna? While there can be any number of reasons for this, such a conclusion does not follow (non-sequitur).

@steve7150,
You said...

i would think if eternal hell/darkness/separation were true then the Apostles who preached and every believer who truly believes this should be warning people non-stop, 24/7.

Steve, I believe Christians who believe, as 'Steve G' would say, in even 1 day of punishment, that would be serious enough. And I certainly believe the Apostles and Jesus (consider the Gospels, letters to the churches in Revelation) provided a fair share of warnings. But I don't believe it is realistic for all believers to engage every individual on these matters 24/7 and continue to live within society and provide support for families and engage in other necessary forms of ministry (caring for those in need, etc.), but I do believe many Christians make reasonable efforts to proclaim the Gospel, although there is no doubt that we all could likely be doing a better job about it.