A 4th Alternative View of Hell

[Guest]

In another thread on this forum three different alternative views of hell are discussed. The traditional view has God sending the vast majority of mankind to a never-ending punishment after the resurrection. The Anihilationist view believes that the same majority are simliply wiped from existance. The Christian Universalist view says that this majority does go to hell but doesn't stay forever, only a length of time appropriate for their sin. These three views have one common principal - that the judgment takes place after the resurrection. I believe that there is a 4th view which makes more sense than all these. It hinges on the timing of the judgment. Here is a brief overview of this view.

1. Judgment began at the Day of Pentecost.

Matt 3:7-12
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

John the Baptist says here that Christ will not only baptize with his Holy Spirit but also with fire. He relates this to the judgment when he says that he will gather the wheat and burn up the chaff. This started at the Day of Pentecost and continues today.

2. Those who are condemned are not those who are dead "physically" but those who are dead "spiritually."

There are two kinds of death presented in the New Testament - physical death when the body is dead, and spiritual death or the death of the soul.

Matt 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

1 Tim 5:6
But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives.

Here it is plain that there are two deaths. Those scriptures which talk about the dead being judged are referring to those whose souls are dead because they have been overcome by sin; it is not referring to those who are dead physically.

3. The condemnation or punishment one receives from this judgment is according to his works.

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Those who are overcome by sin "reap what they sow" (Gal 6:7-8 ). God's wrath is poured out on them in four ways - (1) The conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8 ), (2) the torment of their own conscience (Rom 2:15), (3) the adminstration of the governing authorities (Rom 13:1-4), (4) the destructive nature of sin itself (Rom 1:18-32). This is hell, this is the punishment. It is everlasting in the sense that it will persist so long as the person does not repent and turn to Christ for forgiveness and salvation.

Those who are in Christ and walk after the Spirit receive no condemnation (Rom 8:1). These recieve God's blessings. The law of Christ is to "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Rom 13:9, Gal 5:14, James 2:8 ). Those who fulfill this law by bearing one another's burdens (Gal 6:2) are rewarded by the Spirit with Spritual blessings - namely, peace, joy, happiness, fulfillment, and love.

These three principals form the basis of this 4th view of Hell. Yes, hell is real and the punishment is real, but it takes place while we live before our bodies die. After the body dies there is no more punishment and no more judgment. Those who have lived with sin as a companion have suffered their punishment while they were living.

I realize this leaves a lot of unanswerered questions, but I was trying to be brief. I welcome any comments or questions you may have.

Todd

[Guest]

These three principals form the basis of this 4th view of Hell. Yes, hell is real and the punishment is real, but it takes place while we live before our bodies die. After the body dies there is no more punishment and no more judgment. Those who have lived with sin as a companion have suffered their punishment while they were living.


Hi Todd, God's standard of punishment in the OT was "an eye for an eye" and although we can never pay enough for our own sins to be righteous in God's eyes it seems to me that if justice is not satisfied in this life God will satisfy his own standard of justice at some time.
So it does'nt seem like justice to me that truly evil people like Hitler,Stalin,Pol Pot etc can simply die and pay no price to satisfy justice.

Christ paid the price of our sinning against God and against our fellow man but does'nt repentence include making right what can be made right. This alternative leaves no room for repentence which clearly was right at the top of Christ's list.
The bible mentions often "God's wrath" , where's the beef?

[Guest]

How does the "fourth view of hell" address the after life?

[Guest]

Steve,

You said,

"So it does'nt seem like justice to me that truly evil people like Hitler,Stalin,Pol Pot etc can simply die and pay no priceto satisfy justice."

If you read carefully what I said in under the third principal you will see that these people indeed were severely punished in their lifetime as well as anyone who commits sin.

You said,

"The bible mentions often "God's wrath" , where's the beef?"

Again, ready carefully what I said. God pours out his wrath during this life in four ways.

You said, "

Christ paid the price of our sinning against God and against our fellow man but doesn't repentence include making right what can be made right. This alternative leaves no room for repentence which clearly was right at the top of Christ's list."

I did mention repentance. I said,

Those who are overcome by sin "reap what they sow" (Gal 6:7-8 ). God's wrath is poured out on them in four ways - (1) The conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8 ), (2) the torment of their own conscience (Rom 2:15), (3) the adminstration of the governing authorities (Rom 13:1-4), (4) the destructive nature of sin itself (Rom 1:18-32). This is hell, this is the punishment. It is everlasting in the sense that it will persist so long as the person does not repent and turn to Christ for forgiveness and salvation.

In this sense then, salvation, or "being saved" is like what Paidion has been saying all along - that we are saved from the destructive nature of sin in our lives to enjoy the peace, joy and love of Christ during our lifetime.

Todd

[Guest]

How does the "fourth view of hell" address the after life?

Acts 24:15
I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

Christ has reconciled the world unto himself (2 Cor 5:19) and in this way is the Savior of the world.

John 4:42
Then they said to the woman, "Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world."

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.

All will be resurrected with a new incorruptible body.

Todd

[Guest]

Steve,

Here's a little more follow-up to your question about God's wrath.

Regarding the Holy Spirit, Jesus said, that when He came He would "convict the world of sin" (John 16:8 ). This is the beginning of God's wrath against sin. Our hearts are convicted by the Holy Spirit.

Next, our conscience will torment us if we continue in sin. In Romans 2:15 Paul said, "their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them." God has given us a conscience to torment us when we sin.

Regarding the governing authorities Paul said,

Rom 13:4
4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

And Finally, in Romans Chapter 1 Paul says specifically that,

Rom 1:18
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Notice that Paul says this is happening now. He goes on to say that God, in the execution of this wrath, he...

"gave them up to uncleanness...." (v.24)

"gave them up to vile passions..." (v.26)

"gave them over to a debased mind..." (v.28)

So we can see that God's wrath is poured out during our lifetime for those who sin.

Todd

[Guest]

Next, our conscience will torment us if we continue in sin. In Romans 2:15 Paul said, "their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them." God has given us a conscience to torment us when we sin.


Todd, Hitler's conscience must torment him to equal the torment of 12,000,000 victims plus relatives of victims who were tormented. That would satisfy "eye for eye" justice which Jesus never refuted in the NT. Jesus told christians to be merciful and God is merciful BUT letting Hitler get off with 10 years of mental torment for what he did or Stalin or Pol Pot or any of their ilk IMHO would not be merciful to their victims or even them.
Just as i see nothing difinitive in the bible making death a clear dividing line for salvation neither do i see anything difinitive making it the dividing line for repentence which means paying back the victims in whatever way God decides.
Like i've said before "once to die and then the judgement" ,uses the greek word "krisis" for judgement and it does'nt mean conviction it means a period of time to be judged and that period of time is up to God.
You see , the verses you quoted are all very true and relevant but where does it state that all must be accomplished during this physical life and in particular repentence?

[Guest]

FOF, you may want to check this out and see a thorough study of the subject.
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules ... le&sid=297

Does the Lord judge now or at the Judgment?

As always these are complex subjects and require more than surface reading.

[Guest]

Todd, Hitler's conscience must torment him to equal the torment of 12,000,000 victims plus relatives of victims who were tormented. That would satisfy "eye for eye" justice which Jesus never refuted in the NT.

Steve,

Jesus did refute this. He said.....

Math 5:38-42
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

He finishes this chapter by saying that perfect love does not hinge on the righteousness of others....

Matt 5:43-48
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

What you think is a just punishment for Hitler may be different from what God thinks. I believe that he probably was miserable his entire life and found no relief from bitterness and anguish in his soul.

Todd

[Guest]

As always these are complex subjects and require more than surface reading.

JF,

I will look at your reference. But I can assure you that I have done much more than just a "surface reading" on this subject. I have had a one-track-mind on this subject for well over a year.

Todd