Greetings, TK
As I understand the scriptures, when we're dead, we're dead. The next thing overcoming disciples will know will be the resurrection when Christ comes. Non-disciples will be raised at the Great White Throne judgment at the end of the Millenium. There may be some disciples raised at that time, too. John saw in his vision at Patmos that "all those whose names were not written in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire." That seems to imply that some of those resurrected will have had their names in the book of life.
No dreams. The word "sleep" is used figuratively. Have you ever slept a deep dreamless sleep so that the next thing your remember is that it is morning? I have heard of many people who have undergone an operation, who were "put under", and when they awakened, they didn't know that the operation had been performed.
I believe Gehenna to be a place or condition of great discomfort, and that it will last "ages of ages". I believe that all of God's judgments are remedial, not penal. Those in Gehenna must repent and come under the authority of Christ, just as you and I did. Some think that if there is free will, some will continue to rebel forever. Although this is theoretically possible, it is practically impossible, given enough time. It is theoretically possible that if you throw a fair coin one billion times, it will always be a heads. But it is practically impossible.
Pain in itself will not cause a person to repent. My understanding is that when the overcomers are raised at the first resurrection when Christ comes, Christ will put the finishing touches on their completion. Disciples are now being conformed to the image of Christ, and He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion in the day of Christ. These completed disciples will have great power. It is my conjecture that God will send these to Gehenna to witness to the lost. Eventually, every one of them will repent.
Three Views of Hell- sidebar
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
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_STEVE7150
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:38 pm
TK, Everyone goes through the same FIRE "pur" both believers and unbelievers so it seems to me if one group is tormented then everyone is. Every man's work is REVEALED and TESTED by fire "if what he has built survives he will receive his reward . If it is burned up he will suffer loss , he himself will be saved ,but only as one escaping through the flames" 1 Cor 3.14
It's the same FIRE (pur) that unbelievers face but they also face BRIMSTONE which is really sulfer a purifying agent. Sulfer is a poor conductor of literal fire but it is a great cleansing agent. And even in the most terrifying sounding verses is it the lamb that does the tormenting?
"He will be tormented with BURNING SULFER in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb." Rev 14.10
"There is no rest day or night FOR THOSE WHO WORSHIP the beast and his image." 14.11
A couple of things to note here are that the Lamb is not tormenting anyone , unbelievers are tormented IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb which seems to me to be mental anguish. Second, "for those who worship" is present tense which is a continuing action as oppossed to "those who worshipped." My point is what if they STOP worshipping the beast when they SEE the Lamb, will they not be tormented with grief leading hopefully to repentence? The smoke (memory) of their torment will be for AGES because they will remember what the Lamb did for them.
God's throne is described as "The great WHITE throne judgement" and white is always symbolic of righteousness and God's righteous judgement NEVER PHYSICALLY TORMENTED people. In the OT when God executed righteous judgement on heathen He DESTROYED them quickly , just wiped them out. And how about Jesus who is said to have the fullness and nature of the Father, did Jesus torment people?
Whether everyone will ultimately make it through the LOF and be purified of sin and repent and pay restitution and bow the knee to Christ only God knows but i'm a hopeful universalist.
It's the same FIRE (pur) that unbelievers face but they also face BRIMSTONE which is really sulfer a purifying agent. Sulfer is a poor conductor of literal fire but it is a great cleansing agent. And even in the most terrifying sounding verses is it the lamb that does the tormenting?
"He will be tormented with BURNING SULFER in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb." Rev 14.10
"There is no rest day or night FOR THOSE WHO WORSHIP the beast and his image." 14.11
A couple of things to note here are that the Lamb is not tormenting anyone , unbelievers are tormented IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb which seems to me to be mental anguish. Second, "for those who worship" is present tense which is a continuing action as oppossed to "those who worshipped." My point is what if they STOP worshipping the beast when they SEE the Lamb, will they not be tormented with grief leading hopefully to repentence? The smoke (memory) of their torment will be for AGES because they will remember what the Lamb did for them.
God's throne is described as "The great WHITE throne judgement" and white is always symbolic of righteousness and God's righteous judgement NEVER PHYSICALLY TORMENTED people. In the OT when God executed righteous judgement on heathen He DESTROYED them quickly , just wiped them out. And how about Jesus who is said to have the fullness and nature of the Father, did Jesus torment people?
Whether everyone will ultimately make it through the LOF and be purified of sin and repent and pay restitution and bow the knee to Christ only God knows but i'm a hopeful universalist.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Just a word about the Greek word "basanizo" which has been translated as "torment" in Revelation.
The English word "basalt" has been derived either from this word, or from the nounal form "basanos" which means a touchsone used to test the purity of metals.
According to Greek lexicons, the primary meaning of "basanizo", the verbal form is:
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
I suggest that this word is figuratively used in Revelation to indicate that when the wicked are raised to life and cast into Gehenna, God will be continually "testing the purity" of those who find themselves there. When they repent and are "purified by fire" they will be ready to be with the Lord. This will not be "torment" for the sake of revenge or penalty, but it will be "testing" for the sake of determining the extent of the purification process.
The English word "basalt" has been derived either from this word, or from the nounal form "basanos" which means a touchsone used to test the purity of metals.
According to Greek lexicons, the primary meaning of "basanizo", the verbal form is:
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
I suggest that this word is figuratively used in Revelation to indicate that when the wicked are raised to life and cast into Gehenna, God will be continually "testing the purity" of those who find themselves there. When they repent and are "purified by fire" they will be ready to be with the Lord. This will not be "torment" for the sake of revenge or penalty, but it will be "testing" for the sake of determining the extent of the purification process.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
I was reading "How to Read the Bible for all Its Worth" last week, and this verse was discussed as pertaining to building the Church, not personal sanctification. From the context, it sure seems as though this is true. So I'm not sure this verse can be shown to have any actual correlation to punishment/reward for the general Christian, but rather for those who build the Church. It could be argued that we all build the Church, but Paul seems to be addressing figures in Authority, and that they need to take care how they Build.STEVE7150 wrote:TK, Everyone goes through the same FIRE "pur" both believers and unbelievers so it seems to me if one group is tormented then everyone is. Every man's work is REVEALED and TESTED by fire "if what he has built survives he will receive his reward . If it is burned up he will suffer loss , he himself will be saved ,but only as one escaping through the flames" 1 Cor 3.14
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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_SoaringEagle
- Posts: 285
- Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:40 pm
- Location: Louisville, KY
Adam Clarke's Commentary on the New Testament
1 Corinthians 3:13
The day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire-There is much difference of opinion relative to the meaning of the terms in this and the two following verses. That the apostle refers to the approaching destruction of Jerusalem I think very probable; and when this is considered, all the terms and metaphors will appear clear and consistent.
The day is the time of punishment coming on this disobedient and rebellious people. And this day being revealed by fire, points out the extreme rigour, and totally destructive nature, of that judgment.
And the fire shall try every man's work-If the apostle refers to the Judaizing teachers and their insinuations that the law, especially circumcision, was of eternal obligation; then the day of fire-the time of vengeance, which was at hand, would sufficiently disprove such assertions; as, in the judgment of God, the whole temple service should be destroyed; and the people, who fondly presumed on their permanence and stability, should be dispossessed of their land and scattered over the face of the whole earth. The difference of the Christian and Jewish systems should then be seen: the latter should be destroyed in that fiery day, and the former prevail more than ever.
1 Corinthians 3:14
If any man's work abide-Perhaps there is here an allusion to the purifying of different sorts of vessels under the law. All that could stand the fire were to be purified by the fire; and those which could not resist the action of the fire were to be purified by water, Numbers 31:23. The gold, silver, and precious stones, could stand the fire; but the wood, hay, and stubble, must be necessarily consumed. So, in that great and terrible day of the Lord, all false doctrine, as well as the system that was to pass away, should be made sufficiently manifest; and God would then show that the Gospel, and that alone, was that system of doctrine which he should bless and protect, and none other.
He shall receive a reward-He has not only preached the truth, but he has labored in the word and doctrine. And the reward is to be according to the labor. See on 1 Corinthians 3:8 (note).
1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss-If he have preached the necessity of incorporating the law with the Gospel, or proclaimed as a doctrine of God any thing which did not proceed from heaven, he shall suffer loss-all his time and labor will be found to be uselessly employed and spent. Some refer the loss to the work, not to the man; and understand the passage thus: If any man's work be burned, IT shall suffer loss-much shall be taken away from it; nothing shall he left but the measure of truth and uprightness which it may have contained.
But he himself shall be saved-If he have sincerely and conscientiously believed what he preached, and yet preached what was wrong, not through malice or opposition to the Gospel, but through mere ignorance, he shall be saved; God in his mercy will pass by his errors; and he shall not suffer punishment because he was mistaken. Yet, as in most erroneous teachings there is generally a portion of wilful and obstinate ignorance, the salvation of such erroneous teachers is very rare; and is expressed here, yet so as by fire, i.e. with great difficulty; a mere escape; a hair's breadth deliverance; he shall be like a brand plucked out of the fire.
The apostle obviously refers to the case of a man, who, having builded a house, and begun to dwell in it, the house happens to be set on fire, and he has warning of it just in time to escape with his life, losing at the same time his house, his goods, his labor, and almost his own life. So he who, while he holds the doctrine of Christ crucified as the only foundation on which a soul can rest its hopes of salvation, builds at the same time, on that foundation, Antinomianism, or any other erroneous or destructive doctrine, he shall lose all his labor, and his own soul scarcely escape everlasting perdition; nor even this unless sheer ignorance and inveterate prejudice, connected with much sincerity, be found in his case.
1 Corinthians 3:13
The day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire-There is much difference of opinion relative to the meaning of the terms in this and the two following verses. That the apostle refers to the approaching destruction of Jerusalem I think very probable; and when this is considered, all the terms and metaphors will appear clear and consistent.
The day is the time of punishment coming on this disobedient and rebellious people. And this day being revealed by fire, points out the extreme rigour, and totally destructive nature, of that judgment.
And the fire shall try every man's work-If the apostle refers to the Judaizing teachers and their insinuations that the law, especially circumcision, was of eternal obligation; then the day of fire-the time of vengeance, which was at hand, would sufficiently disprove such assertions; as, in the judgment of God, the whole temple service should be destroyed; and the people, who fondly presumed on their permanence and stability, should be dispossessed of their land and scattered over the face of the whole earth. The difference of the Christian and Jewish systems should then be seen: the latter should be destroyed in that fiery day, and the former prevail more than ever.
1 Corinthians 3:14
If any man's work abide-Perhaps there is here an allusion to the purifying of different sorts of vessels under the law. All that could stand the fire were to be purified by the fire; and those which could not resist the action of the fire were to be purified by water, Numbers 31:23. The gold, silver, and precious stones, could stand the fire; but the wood, hay, and stubble, must be necessarily consumed. So, in that great and terrible day of the Lord, all false doctrine, as well as the system that was to pass away, should be made sufficiently manifest; and God would then show that the Gospel, and that alone, was that system of doctrine which he should bless and protect, and none other.
He shall receive a reward-He has not only preached the truth, but he has labored in the word and doctrine. And the reward is to be according to the labor. See on 1 Corinthians 3:8 (note).
1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss-If he have preached the necessity of incorporating the law with the Gospel, or proclaimed as a doctrine of God any thing which did not proceed from heaven, he shall suffer loss-all his time and labor will be found to be uselessly employed and spent. Some refer the loss to the work, not to the man; and understand the passage thus: If any man's work be burned, IT shall suffer loss-much shall be taken away from it; nothing shall he left but the measure of truth and uprightness which it may have contained.
But he himself shall be saved-If he have sincerely and conscientiously believed what he preached, and yet preached what was wrong, not through malice or opposition to the Gospel, but through mere ignorance, he shall be saved; God in his mercy will pass by his errors; and he shall not suffer punishment because he was mistaken. Yet, as in most erroneous teachings there is generally a portion of wilful and obstinate ignorance, the salvation of such erroneous teachers is very rare; and is expressed here, yet so as by fire, i.e. with great difficulty; a mere escape; a hair's breadth deliverance; he shall be like a brand plucked out of the fire.
The apostle obviously refers to the case of a man, who, having builded a house, and begun to dwell in it, the house happens to be set on fire, and he has warning of it just in time to escape with his life, losing at the same time his house, his goods, his labor, and almost his own life. So he who, while he holds the doctrine of Christ crucified as the only foundation on which a soul can rest its hopes of salvation, builds at the same time, on that foundation, Antinomianism, or any other erroneous or destructive doctrine, he shall lose all his labor, and his own soul scarcely escape everlasting perdition; nor even this unless sheer ignorance and inveterate prejudice, connected with much sincerity, be found in his case.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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_STEVE7150
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:38 pm
I was reading "How to Read the Bible for all Its Worth" last week, and this verse was discussed as pertaining to building the Church, not personal sanctification. From the context, it sure seems as though this is true. So I'm not sure this verse can be shown to have any actual correlation to punishment/reward for the general Christian, but rather for those who build the Church. It could be argued that we all build the Church, but Paul seems to be addressing figures in Authority, and that they need to take care how they Build.
Good point Seth, i stand corrected. However here are a couple of verses that i think support the fire that believers go through. The unbelievers though in the LOF also have to deal with brimstone or sulfer which is a purifying agent not an agent that intensifies a literal fire.
1 Peter 1.7 "that the proof of your faith, much more precious than of gold that is perishing and through FIRE being approved may be found to praise and honor and glory in the revelation of Jesus Christ."
1 Peter 4.12 "Beloved think it not strange at the fiery trial among you that is coming to try you as if a strange thing were happening to you."
Good point Seth, i stand corrected. However here are a couple of verses that i think support the fire that believers go through. The unbelievers though in the LOF also have to deal with brimstone or sulfer which is a purifying agent not an agent that intensifies a literal fire.
1 Peter 1.7 "that the proof of your faith, much more precious than of gold that is perishing and through FIRE being approved may be found to praise and honor and glory in the revelation of Jesus Christ."
1 Peter 4.12 "Beloved think it not strange at the fiery trial among you that is coming to try you as if a strange thing were happening to you."
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Just so i am absolutely clear about the various views on this, let me attempt to summarize the three "main" alternative views of hell. please correct me where i am wrong.
Eternal Torment View: after the resurrection and Great White throne judgment, non-believers are cast into the literal lake of fire for literal torment for all eternity
Conditional Immortality View (Annihilation): after the resurrection and GWTJ, non-believers are cast into the "lake of fire" to be "tormented" until their punishment is complete, at which time they are annihilated.
Universalist View: after the resurrection and GWTJ, non-believers are cast into the "lake of fire" to be "tormented" until they repent, at which time they escape further judgment and enter into heaven.
disputable points seem to be:
a. what happens to non-believers NOW when they die (before the resurrection)
b. whether the torment suffered is physical, mental or both
c. whether the "lake of fire" is literally a lake of fire
d. what will make non-believer's repent in hell
e. whether at some point there will no longer be any non-believers in hell
TK
Eternal Torment View: after the resurrection and Great White throne judgment, non-believers are cast into the literal lake of fire for literal torment for all eternity
Conditional Immortality View (Annihilation): after the resurrection and GWTJ, non-believers are cast into the "lake of fire" to be "tormented" until their punishment is complete, at which time they are annihilated.
Universalist View: after the resurrection and GWTJ, non-believers are cast into the "lake of fire" to be "tormented" until they repent, at which time they escape further judgment and enter into heaven.
disputable points seem to be:
a. what happens to non-believers NOW when they die (before the resurrection)
b. whether the torment suffered is physical, mental or both
c. whether the "lake of fire" is literally a lake of fire
d. what will make non-believer's repent in hell
e. whether at some point there will no longer be any non-believers in hell
TK
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)
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_STEVE7150
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:38 pm
Just so i am absolutely clear about the various views on this, let me attempt to summarize the three "main" alternative views of hell. please correct me where i am wrong.
Yes sir, that's about it.
Yes sir, that's about it.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason: