Three Views of Hell- sidebar

Post by **_TK** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:12 am

Hey all--

yesterday while driving my wife and I were listening to Steve's lectures on the alternative views of hell. it seems that the discussion focused on what happens after the final judgment. our question is what happens to non-believers NOW when they die? in other words, lets say a non-believer died in the year 1622. if the conditional immortality view is correct (i.e annihilationism) is it possible that he has already been annihilated (assuming received adequate punishment)? If the universalist view is correct, is it possible that he repented some time ago and is now in heaven? or, rather, must both events (i.e. annihilation or repentance) take place after the final judgment, according to these views? and if these events must take place in the future, what is going on with these people now?

thanks for your help in clarifying this.

TK

Post by **_JC** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:06 pm

This answer is more than a sidebar so I hope you won't mind.

I believe all three views are in agreement in saying that the ungodly will be ressurrected with all the saints. The views differ on what happens after the resurrection/judgement. One belives the ungodly will be judged and then extinguished, another view says they will go into some kind of eternal punishment, and the third view states that all will be purged and repent eventually.

The weakness I see in the annihilationist view is there doesn't seem to be a need to resurrect the ungodly if their fate is that of permanent non-existence. It's like spiking the ball after scoring a touchdown. I've heard it said that they must know why they are being "snuffed out" because these people need to understand their penalty. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, personally, since they will cease to exist soon after.

In my opinion, the weakness of the eternal torment view is that Jesus taught that sins against you were always amendable if the person repented. That doesn't mean people will get another chance to repent after death but Jesus' words about forgiving your brother seventy times seven makes it sound like God enjoys the concept of forgiveness in a profound way. If we, who are evil, are instructed to forgive in this way, how much more is God willing?

It may seem like I'm a universalist but I see weaknesses in that view as well. Currently, I'd describe myself as a "hopeful universalist" and nothing more. But all views, I think, take into account a final ressurrection of the ungodly.

Post by **_TK** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:50 pm

thx, JC-- any thoughts on what happens to non-believers prior to the resurrection?

TK

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:57 pm

It may seem like I'm a universalist but I see weaknesses in that view as well. Currently, I'd describe myself as a "hopeful universalist" and nothing more. But all views, I think, take into account a final ressurrection of the ungodly.

That's good JC a "hopeful universalist" , i can relate to that. I think the unsaved are sleeping until the great white throne judgent and that's where they are judged. Judged does'nt necessarily mean convicted for eternity , just as a human judge can sentence a criminal to differing sentences why would God who tells us to "love our enemy" not give the sinner the opportunity to repent and pay restitution and prove he sincerely wishes to follow Jesus. Why not?
That's what Rev 22.17 says to me "whosoever wants to partake in the water of life, come."
If that does'nt include people in the LOF then John placed that verse in a strange place.

Post by **_TK** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:26 pm

steve7150 wrote:

I think the unsaved are sleeping until the great white throne judgent

thanks, steve, but can you expound on this a little? what do you mean by "sleeping?" do you think they will be aware of anything since they died, or will it seem to them like they died, then the next instant they are awakened to be judged, regardless of how many of years have passed?

also, i assume that you dont apply the same thing to believers, i.e. that they are "asleep" until the resurrection. correct me if i am wrong about this.

TK

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:25 pm

thanks, steve, but can you expound on this a little? what do you mean by "sleeping?" do you think they will be aware of anything since they died, or will it seem to them like they died, then the next instant they are awakened to be judged, regardless of how many of years have passed?

also, i assume that you dont apply the same thing to believers, i.e. that they are "asleep" until the resurrection. correct me if i am wrong about this.

Hi TK, Right, i think believers spirits are with Christ as Paul seemed pretty certain of. Hades/sheol really just means grave and in the OT it was always believed that the dead just slept. Luke 16 "the Rich man and Lazarus" is used to portray conscience torment in hell for unbelievers before the judgement but i don't believe it's about hell at all. So if unbelievers are sleeping they could still be conscience and have dreams but it seems to me that if they have not yet been judged how could God torment them and why would he? Then what would the final judgement really be for if unbelievers are already judged at their death? And where would the equity be since Hitler would end up suffering a lot shorter time then a pagan from the OT.
So i think they just sleep and their next conscience moment is standing in front of Christ on judgement day.

Post by **_TK** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:41 pm

thanks for the clarification-- i figured that is what you meant but i wanted to make sure.

it makes sense to me-- if it's the correct view. it may be.

perhaps you can clarify something else about the universalist view.

if people are in hell where there is "outer darkness" and weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, what will make them "repent?" is anyone there "witnessing" to them? are they somehow constantly reminded of what Jesus did and their need to repent? or do they just suffer to the point where they cant take any more and "say uncle?" my problem with the "say uncle" view is that someone who repents under torture would seem to be not truly repenting. i mean, after all...

TK

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:59 pm

if people are in hell where there is "outer darkness" and weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, what will make them "repent?" is anyone there "witnessing" to them? are they somehow constantly reminded of what Jesus did and their need to repent? or do they just suffer to the point where they cant take any more and "say uncle?" my problem with the "say uncle" view is that someone who repents under torture would seem to be not truly repenting. i mean, after all...

From the way God is described in scripture i don't think he torments people so the descriptions you referred to are symbolic IMHO. "Outer darkness" means outside of the light and "weeping and gnashing of teeth" means mental torment or intense regret. There are some militant atheists but i think most unbelievers would like to believe but seem to have trouble with the faith issue whereas many are just indifferent.
Think of Paul , he called himself the chief of sinners and once he saw Christ he repented in under 30 seconds.
Once people are in the LOF nothing at all is said about them until Rev 22.17 so we can only guess how God deals with them but i try to remember God's charactor and how Jesus prayed for his persecutors.
Also i think Paul said something about the saints will judge the world so perhaps the saints will be involved in this.

Post by **_TK** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:42 pm

steve7150 wrote:

From the way God is described in scripture i don't think he torments people

this diverges somewhat from what steve g said in his lectures (not that we have to agree with steve g). it was his thought ( i think) that in all 3 views of hell, there is a real hell, with real torment. in one it's eternal, in the other 2 it is temporary, but nonetheless real and extremely unpleasant while there.

if you don't think hell is a place of torment, how would you describe it? simply as a place of darkness where one can be alone with their thoughts until they decide to see things God's way? i apologize for asking somewhat simplistic questions but these ideas are fairly new to me and i want to understand them better.

thx! TK

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:10 pm

TK wrote:thanks for the clarification-- i figured that is what you meant but i wanted to make sure.

it makes sense to me-- if it's the correct view. it may be.

perhaps you can clarify something else about the universalist view.

if people are in hell where there is "outer darkness" and weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, what will make them "repent?" is anyone there "witnessing" to them? are they somehow constantly reminded of what Jesus did and their need to repent? or do they just suffer to the point where they cant take any more and "say uncle?" my problem with the "say uncle" view is that someone who repents under torture would seem to be not truly repenting. i mean, after all...

TK

TK,

This may be the right place for me to jump into this discussion. You have asked the question that led me to the 4th view, which is that "hell" is really something people suffer during their lifetime on earth before they die physically. Your question is one I could not find a good answer to while I was trying to make sense of the "Christian Universalist" veiw. I couldn't imagine how someone could go to hell after they died and repent and come out - it just didn't make sense.....at least not in the standard understanding of what most believe hell is.

The 4th view is really a Univeralist view also but just different approach. Of course for this view to be correct judgement must take place during our lifetime. Here is a verse that I believe supports this way of thinking.

John 12:31-32
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Todd