Universalism and not inheriting the kingdom of God

[Guest]

Ciarajade,

Welcome!

Among the sins listed as deadly is gossip. I am sure I have gossiped many times, often without realizing it. I see many Christians commit this sin. Dallas Willard defines gossip as saying something about someone that causes the person spoken to, to have a lower opinion of the person spoken about. I believe he is correct. (Sometimes it is necessary to warn about a person on a "need to know" basis to prevent harm to another.)

Who among us can say they never gossip? We may do it without realizing it. We may do it, realize what we have done and repent. In fact, we may have a repentant heart, striving to live as Jesus would have us live, yet "we all stumble in many ways". There is a great difference between the person who tries to do what's right, although imperfectly, and the person who practices sin, i.e. sin is the "norm" for that person.

How sanctified must I be to remain justified? I do not believe there is a "line". What matters is "faith working through love" as John Mark Hicks puts it.

You mention C. S. Lewis. Have you read Dallas Willard's "The Divine Conspiracy"? Excellent book; some compare him to Lewis.

[mgarrett]

Many versions have "from" but I think the context makes these translations very likely (not that it isn't clear in the KJV). I am sure all of these people are biased by their eternal torment presuppositions or something, but either way the greek is clear, I think.

I still think that the context could easily be taken to mean "as a result of" His presence.

We do know one thing for sure - "the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (1 Cor 15:26). This means that, immeditately prior to the resurrection, Christ will have no more enemies except death itself.

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Do you believe that when death is destroyed here in the lake of fire, that "anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire" as well? By the way I don't take the fire literally, but I do take the concept of being destroyed in some way literally.

Derek, I have already posted about Rev 20. I believe that the "second death" is referring to those who are "dead in sin." These people are still physically alive. When they suffer God's wrath per Rom 1 and/or Rom 13 it is equivalent to being "cast into the LOF."

But you didn't really comment on "the last enemy will be destroyed is death." How can death be the last enemy if God punishes people after that?

Rev 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"

Annihilationism does not conflict with this at all.

I still don't follow this logic. Do you believe that if someone is annihilated that they somehow don't count - that they aren't among the "every creature" mentioned here?....that its like they never existed in the first place? If so, then I see how that would be a convenient way around scriptures like this one, but I don't believe that is correct. I believe that everyone "counts."

Couldn't Paul be saying, "just as those who are physically dead are freed from sin, those also who are dead in Christ through Baptism are freed also?" I think this is a possible interpretation. But let's pursue this thought a little further.....

No. I don't think that is what Paul is saying at all, as the context shows. He is speaking of death "in Christ" and "to sin". This is important, because Christ was ressurected. That is why being dieing "in Him" is beneficial.

Rom 6:5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

Derek, I think if you reread my rewording of Paul's statement you will see that it does not conflict with what you have said here.

What motivates people to sin? John said that it is, "the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" (1 John 2:16). So, when we die, aren't these sin motivators destroyed? And if, in our lifetime, God has seen to it that we reaped what we sowed and has punished us appropriately when we sinned, that someone could be freed from sin at death? I think it is not totally unreasonable to consider it this way.

I (as most others would) take flesh to be more than our physical bodies. For instance, my natural desire to eat is not bad, it is the perversion of it by sin that makes me want to overeat.

The "flesh" is dealt with by faith in what Christ did on the cross. Through the cross we have power to walk according to the Spirit instead of according to the flesh.

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Paul didn't literally die on the cross, of course, but this is the death spoken of in the bible that "frees from sin". A death "like His".

None of what you have said here is in conflict with my statement.

Todd

[mgarrett]

I think even Todd will agree that his view is in the extreme minority among evangelical christians.

I am curious Todd. Is there anyone else that you are aware of that believes what you believe? I have never heard of it before hearing it from you. This in itself does not make it wrong at all. Just curious.

Derek,

There are congregations all over the world that teach similar doctrines to what I have explained here; namely, that the descriptions of hell in the Bible are reffering to a "hell on earth" rather than some post-death punishment. Not that I necessarily agree with everything these congregations teach. The Unitarian Church, some Christian Universalist Churches, and the Unity Church (CJ mentioned this one). This is not so "outlandish" as you might think.

Todd

[Guest]

Or does the Christian have a 'free pass' of sorts to enter in regardless of sin? I must find the truth on this most important matter of eternal destiny. I could more comfortably stay in my legalistic mindset because then at least I have the 'rules' spelled out. This truth journey could bring me back full-circle to where I began. But I hope not.


Hi Clara and welcome, There are some like myself who believe many people will be saved after this life through the lake of fire. I see nothing in the bible that prevents this and it allows for God's justice to be metered out on people based on his standards which are we "reap what we sow." If the LOF were eternal it would not be a lake it would be an abyss sealed shut. The fire is symbolic of judgement IMO and the length of time spent there is simply up to God.
The problem with Todd's view IMO is that in many cases it is devoid of justice. How can Hitler who "sowed" the torment and murder of millions "reap" what he sowed in this life through "mental torment?" Just as the bible says "love covers a multitude of sins" the opposite is true which is that evil creates a multitude of sins. And an evil person who creates a multitude of sins must "reap what he has sowed" first before he can be saved in the LOF.
I may be wrong but that's how i see it because in Matt 23.23 love is defined as "justice,mercy and faithfulness" and justice comes first before mercy.

[mgarrett]

C. S. Lewis said in Mere Christianity,

"There are people who do not accept the full Christian doctrine about Christ but who are so strongly attracted by Him that they are His in a much deeper sense than they themselves understand. There are people in other religions who are being led by God's secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Christianity, and who thus belong to Christ without knowing it."

What are your thoughts on this?

I'm beginning to suspect these cracks to my comfortable foundation just might lead to a full-blown earthquake.

Peace,
CJ

CJ,

This is a very interesting quote from CS Lewis, especially the sentence that I have bolded. This makes it sound that CS believes, as I do, that God's Law has been written on everyone's heart. He seems to say that it is because of this "influence" that people of other religions belong to Christ but don't know it. This sounds a lot like what I said about the guy in Timbukto who is obedient to the Law written in his heart even though he has never read the Bible or heard someone preach the Gospel.

This is very similar to Paul's statement in Romans 2.

Rom 2:14-15
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

Todd

[Guest]

Todd,

You said:

This means that, immeditately prior to the resurrection, Christ will have no more enemies except death itself. This will clear the way for all of mankind to be resurrected - not as enemies - but as those who are saved from death by the grace of God.

Rev 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"

Shouldn't Rev. 5:13 be undestood in light of Rev 5:9-10 where those praising God are the redeemed? Taken literally the creatures in v.13 would include animals and insects. And what of all the bad stuff that goes on after this? It's tough to make doctrine out of hyperbole and highly figurative speech.

[mgarrett]

Todd,

You said:

This means that, immeditately prior to the resurrection, Christ will have no more enemies except death itself. This will clear the way for all of mankind to be resurrected - not as enemies - but as those who are saved from death by the grace of God.

Rev 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"

Shouldn't Rev. 5:13 be undestood in light of Rev 5:9-10 where those praising God are the redeemed? Taken literally the creatures in v.13 would include animals and insects. And what of all the bad stuff that goes on after this? It's tough to make doctrine out of hyperbole and highly figurative speech.

Homer,

I would agree that any verse in Revelation, taken by itself, would be difficult to defend as a point of doctrine. So rather than debate this one I could quote several verses that say that "every knee shall bow.....". But then you would probably say that it was some kind of forced submission or that "every knee" doesn't really mean "every knee," so it's probably pointless to continue on this one.

Todd

[mgarrett]

Todd, et al,

Regarding Romans 1:22-32, see Galatians 5:16-21 where Paul gives a similar list of sins and concludes with a warning that "those who practice (present participle: keep on practicing) such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. This inheritance is fully realized after this life, and is eternal, Hebrews 9:15, 1 Peter 1:3-4. We have but a pledge of this inheritance now, Ephesians 1:11-14.

Those who persist, unrepentant, in the sins Paul listed do not participate in this inheritance in this life or in the life hereafter.

Homer,

This is the best argument for the traditional view that I have read so far. And it is also what Ely posted in the beginning of this thread. So, to be consistent with my reasoning, I must ask this question: Is there a way that these scriptures could be interpreted - without violating the rest of scripture - that could allow for my premise of "no post-death punishment." Here are two possibilities.

(1) The Kingdom of God was inaugurated on the Day of Pentecost and God has placed all things in subjection to Christ. We are still living and yet are in the Kingdom of God. When God blesses us with the fruits of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control) we are receiving this as an inheritance. Those who practice "such things" (as are mentioned in those verses) do not receive this inheritance, but instead, God's wrath (while they live).

(2) I will admit that scriptures that say, "reserved in heaven for you" and that the Spirit is the "earnest of our inheritance," do make it sound like it may be referring to a post-resurrection inheritance. If this is the case, then it could be thought of another way......

My father recently passed away and left an inheritance - some to charity and some to his family. What if he had left all of his inheritance to charity? Would that mean that his family was being punished? I don't think so. MichelleM mentioned "storing up treasures in heaven." Is it not possible that those who receive no inheritance in heaven - are still there - but just without any treasure? I think this is very possible. Remember, once death is destroyed, God has no enemies.

Todd

[Guest]

I still think that the context could easily be taken to mean "as a result of" His presence.

Then you are doing so against the actual meaning of the word. Do you think that you are justified in redifining words to fit your doctirne?

Derek, I have already posted about Rev 20. I believe that the "second death" is referring to those who are "dead in sin." These people are still physically alive. When they suffer God's wrath per Rom 1 and/or Rom 13 it is equivalent to being "cast into the LOF."

My point was, that you obviously believe that death will be destroyed. In this passage "those who's names were not found in the book" were destroyed in the same way. Namely, in the lake of fire. It's all very figurative language of course, but the point is that they are both destroyed.

But you didn't really comment on "the last enemy will be destroyed is death." How can death be the last enemy if God punishes people after that?

Even if people are in hell for all of eternity, which I don't think they are, death can still be destroyed because there will be no more. Death is defeated at the ressurection. That is the context of 1 Cor. 15.

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

By the way, it's ironic that you think "destroyed" actually means "destroyed" here. The bible also uses this word to describe what Christ does to the "lawless one" in 2 Thes. 2:8 when Christ returns. I'ts the same kind of language in both verses, only in one, something is destroyed forever (death), and in the other, only in this life, (the lawless one), according to your system.

Derek wrote:
Quote:
Rev 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"


Annihilationism does not conflict with this at all.


I still don't follow this logic. Do you believe that if someone is annihilated that they somehow don't count - that they aren't among the "every creature" mentioned here?....that its like they never existed in the first place? If so, then I see how that would be a convenient way around scriptures like this one, but I don't believe that is correct. I believe that everyone "counts."

If everyone but the redeemed are gone, then every knee left would bow. There would be no more death either of course, because all who are left are in Christ because they placed their faith in Him and have eternal life as a result. It could be said then that death was destroyed and that every knee will bow to Christ. If everyone on earth were to bow before the queen of England, could it not be said that every knee bowed because there are peaple that haved died since the creation of the world?

[mgarrett]

Then you are doing so against the actual meaning of the word. Do you think that you are justified in redifining words to fit your doctirne?

Be careful here, Derek. The same thing could be said about you.

I find lexicons of little use because they have so many different choices of what the words can mean that you end up having to go to the context to figure it out anyway. I am certain that you also use the context to figure out the intended meaning of a word.

If I said, "I broke my ankle from stepping on a rock," you would understand that I broke my ankle "as a result of" stepping on a rock. Or if I said, "I caught the flu from walking in the rain," you would understand that I caught the flu "as a result of" walking in the rain. If I had substituted "away from" for the word "from" in these statements, they would make no sense.

In 2 Thess 1 we are told that Jesus would be "revealed from heaven." I think that we agree that this has something to do with His "coming." If he comes then He must be in our "presence." Therefore, as a result of Him being present, something is destroyed. It is His presence that does the destroying. This is the way I read the context.

My point was, that you obviously believe that death will be destroyed. In this passage "those who's names were not found in the book" were destroyed in the same way. Namely, in the lake of fire. It's all very figurative language of course, but the point is that they are both destroyed.

Rev 20 does not say anything about "destroying." You are making an assumption that when death is cast into the LOF that he is referring to what Paul said in 1 Cor 15 about death being destroyed. I am not sure that is correct. I believe that it is more likely referring to the fact that Christ conquered death at His resurrection. The actual destruction of death comes later.

Even if people are in hell for all of eternity, which I don't think they are, death can still be destroyed because there will be no more.

I disagree with this statement. There may be no more dying, but there will still be death. If someone has died - and stays dead - then death still exists - it has not been destroyed. If someone is cast into the LOF (which is the second death) after the resurrection, then death still exists - it has not been destroyed. This makes sense to me.

By the way, it's ironic that you think "destroyed" actually means "destroyed" here. The bible also uses this word to describe what Christ does to the "lawless one" in 2 Thes. 2:8 when Christ returns. I'ts the same kind of language in both verses, only in one, something is destroyed forever (death), and in the other, only in this life, (the lawless one), according to your system.

I have not commented on 2 Thess 2:8.

Todd