In favor of Universalism

[Guest]

the ephesian jailer asked paul what he needed to do to be saved.

paul told him that he needed to "believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved."

if the ephesian didnt really need to believe in the Lord jesus to be saved, and Paul knew this, doesnt it make paul a big fat liar?

TK

TK,

This is a fair question. As I have explained before, salvation comes in two parts - salvation from death and salvation in life. Christ's death on the cross and his resurrection conquered death for all mankind. Salvation from death requires nothing on our part, it is the gift of God. Salvation in life is another matter. Faith in Christ is a requirement for salvation in life. Only through our faith can we enjoy the spiritually blessed life that Christ has for those who love Him. This is eternal life. It is called "eternal life" because it has its source in the Eternal God.

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Todd

[Guest]

Todd,

You said:

In the second two verses (v28-29) Jesus speaks of an "hour" that was coming in which all of the spiritually dead would hear His voice. I do not believe that Jesus is contrasting spiritual resurrection verses physical resurrection; He is contrasting the number of hearers - some versus all. The "hour" spoken of here is referring to the Day of Pentecost when His Spirit was poured out on all flesh.

No wonder you come up with such strange ideas. Jesus plainly said "all who are in the graves', not "all of the spiritually dead". The Greek word mnemeion is translated "grave {8x}, sepulchre {29x}, or tomb {5x} every place (42 times total) it is used in the New Testament. By what method do you come up with "spiritually dead"? Seems obvious you have your own peculiar lens through which you read scripture.

[Guest]

By what method do you come up with "spiritually dead"?

Homer,

The short answer is this: From the context. In v24-25 Jesus was speaking of the spiritually dead. I think you agree with this, don't you? We might say that these were in the graveyard of sin. I think it is perfectly logical to conclude that Jesus is still speaking of the same thing in v.28-29. That's the way I see it.

Todd

[Guest]

The short answer is this: From the context. In v24-25 Jesus was speaking of the spiritually dead. I think you agree with this, don't you?

I'm not answering for Homer. But I just wanted you to know that I don't agree that Jesus was speaking of the spiritually dead in v25.

Jesus was speaking, as recorded in v25-29, all the way through, of the actual future resurrection of all people. Unless that resurrection occurs, we may as well eat, drink, and be merry. For tomorrow we'll die ---- and stay dead.

[Guest]

Jesus was speaking, as recorded in v25-29, all the way through, of the actual future resurrection of all people.

Paidion,

Do you believe that there are any verses which speak about a spiritual resurrection? What about this one?

Col 2:13
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

Todd

[Guest]

Todd,

People are raised from the dead spiritually, in a figurative sense. See Ephesians 5:14; "Therefore He says "Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light." (NKJV)

But you said:

In the second two verses (v28-29) Jesus speaks of an "hour" that was coming in which all of the spiritually dead would hear His voice. I do not believe that Jesus is contrasting spiritual resurrection verses physical resurrection; He is contrasting the number of hearers - some versus all. The "hour" spoken of here is referring to the Day of Pentecost when His Spirit was poured out on all flesh.

"All" the spiritually dead did not hear on the Day of Pentecost, only a relative few.

What do you believe to be the purpose of your purported "punishment" that you say occurs in this life? Does it somehow "pay" for our sins or is it for bringing about reformation of the one punished? Punishment has a demonstrably poor record regarding reformation of those punished.

[Guest]

What do you believe to be the purpose of your purported "punishment" that you say occurs in this life? Does it somehow "pay" for our sins or is it for bringing about reformation of the one punished? Punishment has a demonstrably poor record regarding reformation of those punished.

Homer,

The punishment does not pay for the sin. We are told many times in the New Testament that, in Judgment, we will be "rewarded" according to our works. The punishment received by the sinner is God's reward for sinful works. The purpose of the punishment (or correction) is as a call to repentence. Some respond to the call, many do not.

"All" the spiritually dead did not hear on the Day of Pentecost, only a relative few.

We have already debated this before. I believe that when Joel prophesied that His Spirit would be poured out on ALL flesh it literally meant all of mankind. Also, when Jeremiah prophesied that ALL would know Him from the least to the greatest, he meant all of mankind. I believe that John 5:28 is only further confirmation of this.

Todd

[Guest]

In the second two verses (v28-29) Jesus speaks of an "hour" that was coming in which all of the spiritually dead would hear His voice. I do not believe that Jesus is contrasting spiritual resurrection verses physical resurrection; He is contrasting the number of hearers - some versus all. The "hour" spoken of here is referring to the Day of Pentecost when His Spirit was poured out on all flesh.

Todd, "all flesh" is hyperbole , like all flesh present at that event. Where people in China overcome by the Holy Spirit? Re John 5.28-29 "grave" is from the greek word "mnemeiois" which means burial place in a physical sense. And Hebrews 9.27 says "it is appointed for people to die once and then the judgement."
Getting back to your take on John 5.29 that the spiritually dead will hear his voice, do you mean while they are alive they will hear his voice? If everyone hears his voice during this life it seems very very few respond and if they hear his voice in what way do they hear it? Presumably not audible, therefore what is the voice, is it conscience and if so how would a saved person respond. I think it's clear throughout human history many people , perhaps a majority have no idea who Christ was , so in what manner would they have heard his voice?

[Guest]

Getting back to your take on John 5.29 that the spiritually dead will hear his voice, do you mean while they are alive they will hear his voice? If everyone hears his voice during this life it seems very very few respond and if they hear his voice in what way do they hear it? Presumably not audible, therefore what is the voice, is it conscience and if so how would a saved person respond. I think it's clear throughout human history many people , perhaps a majority have no idea who Christ was , so in what manner would they have heard his voice?

Steve,

Here is my answer from another thread that I think answers this question.

Todd wrote:

This is how the Holy Spirit can convict the world of sin (John 16:8 ) because everyone knows what he ought to do.

are you stating that before the day of pentecost, people did not have a conscience?

perhaps if you can define what you see as the difference between "having the law of God written on your hearts" and what we call a "conscience," i will better understand your position.

thx!! TK

TK,

Thank you for asking this question as I believe it will clarify what I believe the scriptures teach on this subject.

Man has always had a conscience since creation. The function of the conscience is to compare our thoughts and actions to what our heart believes is right. Our conscience then "accuses, or else defends" us accordingly.....as Paul said in Rom 2:15. Now here's the difference. Before the Day of Pentecost, what people "believed was right" was solely dependent on the society in which they lived or their family or their religion. The vast majority of mankind was ignorant of what was truly right according to God. The Jews had some idea through the Law of Moses but even they were more caught up in the letter of the Law rather than the Spirit of it. The only way someone could find out what was truely right was by being taught person-to-person of the Law of Moses. Jeremiah prophesied of a new way in Jer 31:33-34.

Jer 31:33-34
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

So God sent His Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost and "imprinted" the Law of God into the heart of everyone. Now deep in each person's heart he knows what is truly right according to our Lord and his conscience will accuse or defend him accordingly. Now the correct moral standard is universal in each person's heart.

But, of course, many people do not obey their conscience. This is true. And I believe their soul suffers for it. This is what the Bible teaches.

Col 3:25
But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

The Christian, through prayer, meditation and study will align (or yield) his thoughts and actions to the will of God through obedience to his conscience which is guided by the Spirit or the implanted word.

James 1:21
Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

So, has everyone received this enlightenment? I believe so.

John 1:9
The true light [Christ] that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

Todd

Todd

[Guest]

So God sent His Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost and "imprinted" the Law of God into the heart of everyone. Now deep in each person's heart he knows what is truly right according to our Lord and his conscience will accuse or defend him accordingly. Now the correct moral standard is universal in each person's heart.

But, of course, many people do not obey their conscience. This is true. And I believe their soul suffers for it. This is what the Bible teaches.

Col 3:25
But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

The Christian, through prayer, meditation and study will align (or yield) his thoughts and actions to the will of God through obedience to his conscience which is guided by the Spirit or the implanted word.




If everyone in the world received this imprinting on the Day of Pentacost should'nt the behavior of people have noticably changed? As far as i know ,if anything it declined because Europe after Rome fell, entered the Dark Ages.
But the main difference i have with you is not this particular issue but the absence of justice in your belief system at least IMO. Hitler being born much later in history then many would experience a similar fate to any run of the mill evil person. Hitler killed around 10 million people and broke up countless families and caused incalculable misery. He deserves to reap what he sowed IMO which is the number of years he robbed from all these people which may be 10 mil times 30=300 million years in the LOF. That's what he should receive, but God is merciful and may reduce this sentence if Hitler repents and bows the knee to Christ. That's up to God which is why He used the word "aionios" with regards to the LOF because it's one of the secrets of the Lord which only He knows.
The very first word in Matt 23.23 is justice and then mercy and faithfulness. God has told us an "eye for an eye" is justice , not revenge but simply justice and only God can commute or reduce someone's sentence because only God can read our hearts.
IMHO you're belief system lacks justice and does'nt reconcile to the rest of scripture regarding evidence that people reap what they sow in this life. Saying that God's wrath is upon sinner's does not address the issue of justice because it is only saying God is angry but does not say or imply He is currently taking any action. In fact scripture says that God sends the rain on the just and the wicked in this life.