In favor of Universalism

[mgarrett]

Rom 8:18-25
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

When I read this passage I feel like Paul is teaching Universalism. Paul makes a distinction between "the creation" and "we which have the firstfruits of the Spirit." I take this to mean that "we" is referring to Christians and that "the creation" is the rest of God's creation. He says that both groan for the redemption of our bodies. He says, in verse 21, the creation also will be delivered [from death] into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

I believe this thought is a perfect companion to this passage....

1 Cor 15:25-26
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

This passage seems to be very clear. When death is destroyed Christ has no more enemies. When the resurrection occurs all of Christ's enemy have been subdued already. This clears the way for even "the creation" to be delievered from the bondage of decay into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Todd

[Guest]

From these scriptures, in your explantion, I can see why you think all punishment must happen during our lifetime. Isn't it possible that all judgment and subsequent punishment could be completed before the resurrection but not necessarily in our lifetime?

Happy New Year!
cj

[Guest]

is it possible that the term "creation" in this passage means the creation other than human beings? that is how i have always read this. i dont have greek books lying around so maybe someone who does can be of assistance.

i must admit, todd, that if the term "creation" here includes, and is not distinct from, human beings, then it adds support to your view.

TK

[mgarrett]

is it possible that the term "creation" in this passage means the creation other than human beings? that is how i have always read this. i dont have greek books lying around so maybe someone who does can be of assistance.

i must admit, todd, that if the term "creation" here includes, and is not distinct from, human beings, then it adds support to your view.

TK

TK,

The same greek word was used in the following passages.

Col 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:23
if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Heb 4:13
Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Mark 16:15
He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

Todd

[mgarrett]

From these scriptures, in your explantion, I can see why you think all punishment must happen during our lifetime. Isn't it possible that all judgment and subsequent punishment could be completed before the resurrection but not necessarily in our lifetime?

Happy New Year!
cj

CJ,

I suppose that is possible. It just appears to me that once the resurrection occurs there is no more punishment due, because all of Christ's enemies have already been subdued.

It could be that the events described in 2 Thess 1 and 2 Pet 3 happen before the resurrection. If so, then there would be no conflict with these passages. And if you read them closely, I can see no reason to think that the resurrection has occured yet.

Todd

[Guest]

Rom 8:18-25
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.



Todd, Good post and i agree "the creation" is eagerly awaiting the revealing of the "sons of God." How could inanimate objects be eagerly awaiting anything therefore it must be referring to the unsaved. And Romans 5 tells us that the Holy Spirit witnesses to our spirit that we as believers are "sons of God."
However think about this, why would the creation want the "sons of God" to be revealed? Perhaps these sons of God will be the ones witnessing to the unbelievers in the LOF.

[Guest]

steve7150 wrote:

How could inanimate objects be eagerly awaiting anything

didnt jesus say something to the effect that if people didnt praise him, then the rocks and stones would do so? i realize he was using hyperbole, but the idea is that all of creation (not just people) was affected by the fall; i have always took paul's words in the above passage to mean that the non-human creation is also eagerly awaiting to be set right, as was intended when it was first created. paul is using some anthropomorphic language. obviously, "things" cant eagerly await things literally, but i think paul was using a literary device.

TK

[Guest]

didnt jesus say something to the effect that if people didnt praise him, then the rocks and stones would do so? i realize he was using hyperbole, but the idea is that all of creation (not just people) was affected by the fall; i have always took paul's words in the above passage to mean that the non-human creation is also eagerly awaiting to be set right, as was intended when it was first created. paul is using some anthropomorphic language. obviously, "things" cant eagerly await things literally, but i think paul was using a literary device.


TK, Paul is contrasting the creation verses the "sons of God." So it sounds to me like he is contrasting unbelievers verses believers.

[mgarrett]

i have always took paul's words in the above passage to mean that the non-human creation is also eagerly awaiting to be set right, as was intended when it was first created.

TK,

I see what you are saying here, but since we know that the unjust will be resurrected (Acts 24:15) it seems to me that the "creation" must include the unjust receiving the "redemption of the body" into the "glorious liberty of the sons of God." Let me offer a possible scenario.....

Paul says in 1 Cor 15:23 that there is an order to the resurrection. He says that Christ is raised first, then "they which are Christ's at His coming." This is referring to the resurrection of the just (which is also mentioned in Luke 14:14 and again in 1 Thess 4:16). This resurrection of the just is what Paul is describing in Rom 8:19 by the "revealing of the sons of God." The "creation" is eagerly awaiting the resurrection of the just because of the "order" mentioned by Paul. The unjust cannot be resurrected until after the just. But something happens between the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust - the Day of Judgment - which is described in 2 Thess 1 and 2 Pet 3. This is also what it meant by Paul in 1 Cor 15:25 when he says, "For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet." During this "between" time, judgment and punishment are dealt to the ungodly. When Paul says, "Then comes the end" in 1 Cor 15:24, he is speaking of the resurrection of the unjust which happens after they have received whatever [corrective] punishment was due. In this way we are consistent with Paul's statement that "the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.".....and consistent with Paul's other statement, "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor 15:22).

TK, this scenario would also provide a possible answer to the concerns voiced by you, Derek, and Homer, that the punishment received by the ungodly in their lifetime is not sufficient for their sins against God and man. It may also provide an answer to Homer's question about justification and mercy. Those who are included in the resurrection of the just are justified and need no mercy; the rest of creation who is resurrected with the unjust do indeed need and receive God's mercy, and are raised into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.

Lam 3:22-24
22 The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases;his mercies never come to an end; 23 they are new every morning;great is your faithfulness. 24 The Lord is my portion, says my soul,therefore I will hope in him.

Todd

[Guest]

his mercies never come to an end

If this is indeed true, pure logic dictates your views are correct.


cj