In favor of Universalism

[Guest]

TK, this scenario would also provide a possible answer to the concerns voiced by you, Derek, and Homer, that the punishment received by the ungodly in their lifetime is not sufficient for their sins against God and man. It may also provide an answer to Homer's question about justification and mercy. Those who are included in the resurrection of the just are justified and need no mercy; the rest of creation who is resurrected with the unjust do indeed need and receive God's mercy, and are raised into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.

How are they justified without faith?

[Guest]

How are they justified without faith?

They're not. Look again at my post. I said that the one's in Christ are justified. The unjust are corrected and then raised, because God is merciful.

Todd

[Guest]

How are they justified without faith?

They're not. Look again at my post. I said that the one's in Christ are justified. The unjust are corrected and then raised, because God is merciful.

Todd

Hi Todd,

I see. It seems you are changing your system a bit here. The way you appear to be looking at things here, is much more like what I understand universalism to be, and although I disagree with that system as well, it is far more biblical in my opinion.

However, in this scenario, it seems again that God's mercy and His perfect justice are still not in harmony. God can only be merciful to the unjust, by them placing their faith in Christ. It is only here that His mercy and justice can be brought into consonance.

While He can certainly do anything He wants, for Him to just give a "pass" to the unjust is to infringe upon His own nature. Which is perfectly just, because He is perfect. If you say He isn't giving them a pass, He's punishing/correcting them, is that how they are justified?

In other words, how are those that stand before God unjustified to recieve mercy? I think they have been dealt mercy at the cross, and refused it, and therefore must instead have justice.

Those who are included in the resurrection of the just are justified and need no mercy; the rest of creation who is resurrected with the unjust do indeed need and receive God's mercy...

I see His "mercy" displayed in our justification. We all need this mercy, and can recieve it, because it was bought with Christ's blood, which we have put our faith in, resulting in justification.

....

I would also point out, that I do not see a "between time" at the judgement. Just because Paul does not mention the unjust in these passages, does not mean they are not present in a general ressurection.

I take "at His coming" in 1 Cor. 15 to speaking of the same event that both 2 Thess 1 and 2 Pet 3 are.

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

This event is the "last day" in which all are raised, and judged.

Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

According to the next chapter in John this is done on the "last day".

I think our difference of opinion may be rooted in our different understandings of just what "death being destroyed" is.

God bless,

[Guest]

[It seems you are changing your system a bit here.

I try not to limit my thinking to some majority view. All three majority views have problems (in my opinion), I am trying to find a solution that works through all my issues.

This is not about my "system," (as you like to call it) this is about possibilities. I offer here a different possibility....just like annihilation is a "possibility," and "endless punishment" is another possibility. The idea of "no post-death punishment" is also a possibility. Here, in this thread, I offer a slight variation which could be summarized as "no post-resurrection punishment." Not that the unjust go unpunished or get a "free pass" as you mentioned. In this scenario the unjust get just what they deserve as described by Paul...

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

It seems to me, in your system, all the unjust get the same punishment - annihilation. But that is not what I read in this verse. It seems that the punishment fits the crime. No free pass.

I think our difference of opinion may be rooted in our different understandings of just what "death being destroyed" is.

Yes, I think you're right. As I understand it, you believe that it means that there will be no more dying. Of course, it would have to mean that for annihilationism to be correct. But I don't see it that way. I believe that it means that no one is dead any more - that everyone that has ever lived is alive. You believe that all are resurrected but that most are subsequently annihilated. What is the point of that? What purpose does that serve? Why not leave them dead in the first place if they are only to be destroyed again? It makes no sense to me, but, as I said, it is a possibility. If someone has been annihilated, they are dead; therefore, death still exists, and has not been destroyed.

Those who are included in the resurrection of the just are justified and need no mercy; the rest of creation who is resurrected with the unjust do indeed need and receive God's mercy...

This statement was in response to a post by Homer. I guess you missed it.

....

I take "at His coming" in 1 Cor. 15 to speaking of the same event that both 2 Thess 1 and 2 Pet 3 are.

This is what I am saying here also, but with a slight variation. Christ comes to execute judgment. Those who have been justified by the blood of Christ are raised (this is the resurrection of the just as mentioned in Luke 14:14). Those who are the unjust are not raised until they have completed their punishment (correction, refinement, purging, or destruction of the 'old man'). Once this is complete, the resurrection of the unjust can take place. This is where God is merciful, because He allows the unjust (with all creation) to share in the glorious liberty of the sons of God (Rom 8:21).

Rom 11:32
For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

This event is the "last day" in which all are raised, and judged.

Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

According to the next chapter in John this is done on the "last day".

You have to go down 40 verses into the next chapter to read that. And if you notice, the subject has changed several times in between. I do not believe we are in the same context anymore.

The true context of John 5:28-29 can be found only a few verses above in John 5:24-25.

John 5:24-25
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

In these verses Christ also speaks of a resurrection - someone who passes from death to life. But the context here is spiritual resurrection, not a physical one. So it is also in John 5:28-29. These verses strongly support (IMO) the premise that the disobedient are punished in their lifetime.

Todd

[Guest]

I try not to limit my thinking to some majority view. All three majority views have problems (in my opinion), I am trying to find a solution that works through all my issues.

I agree that they all have problems. I didn't mean to imply that they didn't. It's just that as of now, I see this view to have the least of the three.

This is not about my "system," (as you like to call it) this is about possibilities.

If this bothers you, I can call it somthing else. I didn't feel it was inaccurate. You have assembled your ideas into a sort of "systematic" order so I thought that I could call it that. Sorry if I offended you.

It seems to me, in your system, all the unjust get the same punishment - annihilation. But that is not what I read in this verse. It seems that the punishment fits the crime. No free pass.

This is not the case (regarding my view). I think that people are punished in some way before being destroyed. Hence the punishment fits the crime. I think that some may very well be blotted out immediatly, but then some won't. In most universalist views, (as far as I know), they are punished until repenting and confessing faith in Christ. In the eternal torment view, all people do get the same punishment because they are punished for all of eternity. On this point, the eternal torment view has the least support IMO.

What I have just mentioned regarding annihilationism is the main problem I have right now, (as a result of thinking about it so much talking with you). What of those that died 2000 yrs ago? Where are they at before the resurrection/judgement? I don't know. Actually, this is a problem for all views I suppose. I would be interested in hearing your take on that.

<b>Regarding our disagreement of the destruction of death:</b>
Yes, I think you're right. As I understand it, you believe that it means that there will be no more dying...

I am rethinking this actually. It seems that death is destroyed at the ressurection. I think that it's figurative for the defeat of death. Death is defeated in the resurrection. This lines up with Rev. 20:11ff which I realize you take differently, but surely you can see my interpretation as a possibility. It sounds an awful lot like the judgement (2cor 5:10 etc) to me.

This is what I am saying here also, but with a slight variation. Christ comes to execute judgment. Those who have been justified by the blood of Christ are raised (this is the resurrection of the just as mentioned in Luke 14:14). Those who are the unjust are not raised until they have completed their punishment (correction, refinement, purging, or destruction of the 'old man'). Once this is complete, the resurrection of the unjust can take place. This is where God is merciful, because He allows the unjust (with all creation) to share in the glorious liberty of the sons of God (Rom 8:21).

How are they (the unjust) justified? By their own suffering or faith in Christ? There is only one way according to the bible. How are you reconciling God's justice with His mercy? If you say by punishing them at the "between" stage of judgement, then are they justifed by their own suffering? This is impossible biblically. It is by being justified that we become "heirs according to the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7).

Rom 11:32
For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

This is a tricky passage, but this verse seems to be talking about the Jews. It has also been said by some that God let the fall come about so that He could show His mercy to all the world in redeeming them. But they have a choice in their redemtion. He has shown mercy at Calvary. That is how we ultimatly recieve mercy from God. Through Christ.

In these verses Christ also speaks of a resurrection - someone who passes from death to life. But the context here is spiritual resurrection, not a physical one. So it is also in John 5:28-29. These verses strongly support (IMO) the premise that the disobedient are punished in their lifetime.

I re-read it and you are right about the context. But I still think this is speaking of the resurrection at the last day. He is speaking not only of His power give life spiritually, but also His power over physical death itself.

Jesus, after speaking of the spiritual resurrection in vs. 24-25 says: "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice... "

What is the "this" spoken of if not the preceding statements? As A.T. Robertson says: "Jesus claims not only the power of life (spiritual) and of judgment, but of power to quicken the actual dead at the Last Day." (emphasis mine). Personally, I think this is the plainer meaning of the passage.

I appreciate the continued dialogue, and your patience with my stubborness.

God bless,

[Guest]

This is not about my "system," (as you like to call it) this is about possibilities.

If this bothers you, I can call it somthing else. I didn't feel it was inaccurate. You have assembled your ideas into a sort of "systematic" order so I thought that I could call it that. Sorry if I offended you.

I guess I was being a bit sensitive on this. System, view, possibility are all okay.

I appreciate the continued dialogue, and your patience with my stubborness.

Thanks, Derek. You have brought up many good points. Maybe together we can work through at least some of the inconsistencies.

There are so many issues I will break up each topic in its own post.

Todd

[Guest]

<b>Regarding our disagreement of the destruction of death:</b>
Yes, I think you're right. As I understand it, you believe that it means that there will be no more dying...

I am rethinking this actually. It seems that death is destroyed at the ressurection. I think that it's figurative for the defeat of death. Death is defeated in the resurrection.

This is how I see it. But it is here that I have a major problem with all three majority views. If death is the last enemy, and death is destroyed at the resurrection, how can there be any punishment after that? Why would God need to punish someone who was not his enemy? Paul says that, prior to the destruction of death, all Christ's enemies have been subdued. That is why, in this thread, I am attempting to evaluate the possibility that all punishment is concluded before the resurrection.

This lines up with Rev. 20:11ff which I realize you take differently, but surely you can see my interpretation as a possibility. It sounds an awful lot like the judgement (2cor 5:10 etc) to me.

This is a good place to start. Yes, 2 Cor 5:10 sounds a lot like Rev 20:12. They both contain the phrase "they were judged according to their works." Notice the wording in Rev 20:12....

Rev 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books

Here it says that "the dead" are judged. Are they spiritually dead or physically dead? Let's say they are physically dead. Can you see the possibility that the resurrection has not happened yet?....they are still dead here when they are jugded and cast into the LOF. I realize that it says that the sea, Death, and Hades "gave up" their dead for this judgment, but does that really mean that they were resurrected? Maybe not; maybe they were just given up for the assembly, and that prior to this point they were just "in holding." It seems to me that if they had been resurrected, it would not say "the dead" were judged; it would say something like, "and they were made alive to appear before the judgment," or something like that.

Of course, the possibility remains that they were not physically dead, but spiritually dead....which leads to different conclusions.

Any thoughts?

Todd

[Guest]

What I have just mentioned regarding annihilationism is the main problem I have right now, (as a result of thinking about it so much talking with you). What of those that died 2000 yrs ago? Where are they at before the resurrection/judgement? I don't know. Actually, this is a problem for all views I suppose. I would be interested in hearing your take on that.

Where are the dead? Good question. Are they conscious? Paul gives the impression that those who are "in Christ" are with Christ, but yet describes them as "asleep." As far as those who are not in Christ, whether they died before Him or after, I tend to think that they have no conscious thought, but I have no scriptural basis for that. This topic would probably make a good thread.

But I think there is really a bigger question here. It is the question about the guy in Timbukto who never hears the Gospel in his lifetime. This question would also be related to those who died before Christ who were not of Israel. What about them? Do they have any chance? When you think of the history of mankind I would think that only a fraction of 1% would have heard the Gospel message. Even today, while many people have heard of Christianity, they know very little about it. This, to me, is one of the biggest points in favor of Universalism. The possibility that Christ is indeed the Savior of the world, provides an answer to this dilemma. The other two views do not (IMO).

Todd

[Guest]

How are they (the unjust) justified? By their own suffering or faith in Christ? There is only one way according to the bible. How are you reconciling God's justice with His mercy? If you say by punishing them at the "between" stage of judgement, then are they justifed by their own suffering? This is impossible biblically. It is by being justified that we become "heirs according to the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7).

My thinking here is that one who is among the "unjust" is not justified (by definition)...that is why they are called unjust...and is why they must suffer God's wrath. The "just" are delivered from God's wrath. Homer said in his post that "justified" means "declared not guilty." So if you are "unjust" you are guilty and must be punished (or corrected). This is where God's mercy comes in; even though the unjust have no claim to "the glorious liberty of the sons of God," He is merciful, and allows them (after they have been corrected) to share in this.

Todd

[Guest]

In these verses Christ also speaks of a resurrection - someone who passes from death to life. But the context here is spiritual resurrection, not a physical one. So it is also in John 5:28-29. These verses strongly support (IMO) the premise that the disobedient are punished in their lifetime.

I re-read it and you are right about the context. But I still think this is speaking of the resurrection at the last day. He is speaking not only of His power give life spiritually, but also His power over physical death itself.

Jesus, after speaking of the spiritual resurrection in vs. 24-25 says: "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice... "

What is the "this" spoken of if not the preceding statements? As A.T. Robertson says: "Jesus claims not only the power of life (spiritual) and of judgment, but of power to quicken the actual dead at the Last Day." (emphasis mine). Personally, I think this is the plainer meaning of the passage.

Of course you could be right about this. Until recently, I had always read it this way. But if v28-29 is speaking of a physical resurrection, and this is also referring to the same event Paul called the destruction of death (the last enemy), then the same problem exists regarding God's punishment of someone who is not an enemy. This is why I began to look at it the other way - that Jesus is still speaking of a spiritual resurrection, just as He was a few verses earlier.

If it is spiritual, then one must decide what "hour" Jesus was speaking of in which "all who were in the graves" would hear His voice. It seems to me that the Day of Pentecost is the most likely possibility. We are told of that Day that His Spirit would be poured out on ALL flesh. Could this be the same thing as ALL hearing his voice? Also, we are told of the New Covenant in Jeremiah Chapter 31, that ALL would know him from the least to the greatest. Whether or not you agree with this, at least you can see my reasoning.

Todd