Hi Bob,
I appreciate what you are saying, but I'm going to have to take issue with several points. Please understand that this is all meant to be taken as spirited but friendly discussion between brothers.
You stated: If I am to embrace Christian Universalisim as truth, then I think these questions must be answered from the Word, and not by our feelings or wishful thinking or philosophical presuppositions. Agreed?
I asked: Before I write a response, I want to clarify: Are you saying that you only want me to answer by providing proof-texts and nothing else? No logic, no reasoning, no exegesis?
You answered: I think you know what I mean.
No, honestly, I don't know what you mean. If I exegete scripture or argue from logic and/or philosophy you seem to think I'm engaging in "wishful thinking" or "philosophical presuppositions". You have asked a series of questions but then set the conditions so that you can reject any answer out of hand, unless it's the answer you want.
I should make it clear also that my goal is not to convince you to embrace Christian Universalism. As I've stated a couple of times, I would just like to see CU given a fair hearing as a valid alternative to Arminianism or Calvinism.
This is what I meant when we approach Scripture with our own pre-suppositions.
The goal of applying hermeneutics is to minimize approaching scripture with pre-suppositions (or at least identify what they are). Are you saying that Universalists don't use a valid hermeneutic? If so, in what way?
With very few exceptions, I have personally tried to avoid someone elses opinions with regard to how we interpret and approach certain passages of Scripture in question . With respect to the "hard sayings" of both God and Jesus we find in the Word, I think we are better off by saying in humble submission; "Lord, I don't know what this or that issue means or implies, but you do".. A little humilty is called for on all sides. Not one of us has an absolute answer. But we know who holds the answers.
I hope you can forgive me for saying this Bob, but that's just dumb. God gave you a brain. He expects us to use our brains and the myriad of resources available to us to seek Him. Theology has been defined as "faith seeking knowledge". Why shouldn't we learn from people who have invested years into understanding Koine Greek, or 1st century Jewish culture, or Pauline theology? "In a multitude of counsel, there is wisdom". The "hard sayings" of the Bible are often "hard sayings" because we don't understand them. Certainly that is the time to say, "Lord, I don't know what this or that issue means or implies, but you do", but that doesn't mean it's time to quit seeking to understand. If it did, we would have stopped at "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so" (which, in and of itself, is a fine place to stop if that's as far as one wants to go).
IMO, humble submission to the Lord is
always the beginning of scripture study and theology in general.
I agree that not one of us has an absolute answer and, of course, humility is called for. That doesn't mean, however, than we cannot formulate viewpoints, convictions and doctrines. Otherwise, Christianity would be a relativistic and subjective pile of goo.
Personally, I do not like the idea that God would punish or annilhilate a person for all eternity. I really like the idea of universal reconcilliation.
But I also realize in the grand scheme of things, I am not God. I am not an impartial Judge who knows all the facts in a particular case. I am like a "little child" who simply looks to His Father for his needs but who really doesn't understand his Daddys business.. I grope in the dark in both awe and confusion at times because I don't always understand what He is up to. Yet, I trust Him in all things to do what is right. I do not trust in man or his philosophies and religion. I have come to accept that if God's punishment is eternal or temporal, if He ultimately saves all in Christ, or if He saves only those who have repented and trusted Christ while they live, then He will be just in all He decides. I am 'sold out' for Christ even when I don't understand. Therefore I believe God is always just and always fair in the affairs of men because He is our Creator. He is the potter and we are the clay.
If I disagree with Christian Universalism, please understand it is not out of personal preference . Nor is it because I have sat under the feet of Augustine, Luther or any other post Apostolic Church father that I prefer concious 'eternal damnation'. Frankly, I have read very little about these men's theology. My convictions came from some very agononizing sessions with the Word. In regard to His judgements, whether temporal, remedial, eternal or absolute in nature, I am convinced beyond a shadow of doubt, He is just, fair and loving in all He decides. Amen?
I wonder if you can you see the contradiction in what you written here. First you say that you don't trust in man or his philosophies and religion, and that whatever God decides is just fine with you. Then in the next breath you say that you disagree with Christian Universalism. Based on what? "...some very agononizing sessions with the Word." That's cool, but I have to ask, are you fluent in koine Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic? Are you an expert on ancient Middle-Eastern cultures and religions? Are you able to study scripture in a pure vacuum of just you, God and the authors of the texts? Me neither. I suspect that you are reading a Bible that has been translated into English. If so, you are relying on man and his philosophies and his religion. Interpretation is intrinsic to translation. In reading a translated Bible, you are reading someone's interpretation. I also suspect that you did not arrive at your current theology all by yourself, with only the direct input of the Holy Spirit. Most likely you have received teaching from various men and so have imbibed their interpretations. When you read scripture therefore, you are reading through the lenses of translators, teachers and theologians. That's not a bad thing. What is bad is to fool yourself into thinking otherwise. You would be wiser to acknowledge that as flawed as man, his philosophies and his religion can be, God works through them. The key is using wisdom and discernment, which implies bringing your God-given intellect to bear.
I am convinced beyond a shadow of doubt, He is just, fair and loving in all He decides. Amen?
Amen!
My intention is really not for the purpose of offending some here with my sometimes "off the cuff" remarks about Christian Universalisim. But rather to make people think through to the implications of what they believe about God's Justice and His Mercy extended to us in Christ Jesus our Lord. Christian Universalisim pre-supposes and it is implied in their teaching, that God would be unjust in punishing sin for all eternity. To do so would be cosmic overkill.
Don't worry, you haven't offended me. I'm quite comfortable with differences of opinion among brothers and sisters. Unity without uniformity.
We all work with pre-suppositions. The question is whether or not our pre-suppositions about a given matter are accurate or not. For example, we all pre-suppose that God is consistent. Scripture tells us so and experience bears it out. If God seems to be telling us something that is inconsistent, our pre-supposition tells us that either it's not God speaking or we're misunderstanding.
Let's say, for example that I stated that God has more affection for rich people than for poor people. You would surely disagree and counter by showing me scriptures that say the opposite. I would tell you that you are "proof-texting". You might try to reason with me by exegeting scripture and explaining the "big picture". I would tell you that are just pre-supposing that God doesn't prefer rich people and after all, who are you, O man, to tell God who He can and can't prefer? This is the kind of box that you've been trying to paint me into.
You seem to assume that I believe in Universalism, first and foremost, because I want to and then have tried to find ways to justify it. This is a false assumption on your part. Over the course of my walk as a Christian, the Holy Spirit has (I believe) directed me into various areas of study. For example, a few years ago I felt a strong "nudging" to study eschatology. I had never really had much interest in it up until then and, frankly, I wasn't too excited about getting into it. But I felt that the Holy Spirit was telling me to do it, so I obeyed. What followed was an in-depth study of eschatology that spanned a couple of years. One of the resources that I came upon during that time was Steve Gregg's book, Revelation: Four views. The more I studied eschatology, the more I started moving towards a Preterist view. I was not happy about this. It was crumbling my pre-suppositions.
My journey towards Christian Universalism has been similar. I would have preferred to not get into it, but I felt compelled by the Holy Spirit to seek a better understanding of sin, Hell, the Atonement, etc. As my studies gradually led me towards Christian Universalism my pre-suppositions began to crumble. This has been very uncomfortable. What was particularly daunting to me were the astounding ramifications of Universalism. I remember crying out to the Lord, with a mixture of joy and fear, "This changes everything!"
The best you really can offer, is you that don't understand and neither do I. That would be the humble confession on all sides.
If that's the best we can offer, then why on earth are we discussing theology? Sing with me: "Je-sus loves me this I know ..."
