Universalism and the Character of God

[Guest]

Todd

Your original quote:

"The whole world is gathered and God's wrath is poured out. The whole world is consumed. But then they are purified to serve the Lord. Interesting, to say the least. Could it be that this same style of writing is also in the New Testament?....and the same principal apply?

My comment pertained to the part interpreted in a CU
context; "But then they are purified to serve the Lord".


To whch I responded by citing Zeph 3:11-13 as clearly indicating by the context, who is consumed by the wrath of God and who in contrast are the ones "purified", those who repent!
I see no good reason or relevance by drawing attention to a language similarity between Peter and Zephaniah. So what? What does this have to do with the current discussion? Daniel and Revelation have "similar" language to! They are both apocolyptic!

Then you write: "You missed the point. I was not trying to prove Universal Reconciliation by quoting that passage".

You weren't? Then you are dishonest? Look at what you wrote;

Your quote:
"Jesus returns for judgment and everything is burned and consumed. But then, everything is renewed in the new heavens and new earth. Could this be parallel, where all people will be purified and serve God "shoulder to shoulder"?

If you were not trying to make your case for 'universal reconcilliation'by the way you "rippped" scripture entirely out of its original context and meaning, what were you trying to prove? What point did I miss?

[Guest]

Steve7150,

You wrote back to Rick: "Trust me Rick, i'm trying.
It's just that you mentioned God's "elect" and that is a Calvinist phrase, so i was just wondering".

Heaven forbid we mention the "E" word lest we be labled the dreaded "C"
word! Or, how about the "B" word, lest we be labled Baptists! My point Steve, all of us have an opinion about election. If the bible didn't use the word to help us distinguish between who the non-elect, ungodly, the wicked, those who will suffer eternal seperation from God etc, you'll end up believing in a confused theological system like Christian Universalism or Unitarianism, or Universal Reconcilliation! Now we don't want to end up there do we?

[Guest]

Steve,

Re: "elect" and Calvinism.
What Bob said.
People believed what the Bible says about "the elect" before Calvinism was in the picture. Anyway, I go with what Paul said about it and see Calvin as not only wrong, but as NOT being any kind of 'authority' on it at all,

Bob,

I found a quote you might like re: John Calvin.
"Beware of French lawyers who offer you a bouquet of tulips."

Have a good weekend, fellas,
Rick

[Guest]

I will add some verses that I wouldn't mind hearing someone from the universalist camp discuss. If it has been talked about, then I missed it.

Jesus said:

Matthew 25:31-46


31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Abundant joy in Christ,

Haas

[Guest]

Howdy Haas,

'Nothin personal about the French lawyers....
gtsy,
Rick

[Guest]

Hello Haas,

This verse has been brought up in the discussion. The problem with the CU position is that they do not answer, or dodge, hedge, explain away the passages of any scripture that even remotely implies a final unending judgement upon the wicked. In their world view, Satan , Hitler, Stalin, i.e., "all" and "any" are ultimately going to be 'saved'. They have their own rules of interpretataion based upon "feeeeelings" rather than TRUTH,
as it is in Jesus and His Word. The implication in their theological construct
is that the Holy Spirit is somehow *incapable*, or *unable* to bring a man to repentance in some cases in this age. This would necessitate the *purifying Fires of Gehenna* for as long as it takes so as to *force* against his free will, into submission and repentatnce. CU, in my opinion is the Devil's "playground" Haas. Its the same old lie of the Serpent, "you shall not die". What's really funny about their theology is that in the end, Satan not only wins through his deceptions, he is forgiven and restored! He becomes Jesus' "buddy". What a story! They have in essence weakend the Lamb of God's power to save "some" men *now* while he yet lives! They have in essence "watered down" or completely misinterpreted the justice of God, and judged Him as a "Wicked Sadistic
Tormentor" if He were to judge the wicked without remedy beyond the grave! What a deception! "Watch out that no one decieves you, for many will come in my Name"...


In Jesus,
Bob

[Guest]

In their world view, Satan , Hitler, Stalin, i.e., "all" and "any" are ultimately going to be 'saved'. They have their own rules of



Bob, This is not true as i have numerous times said that what i believe is that salvation is possible after death since scripture does not preclude it therefore to say affirmatively that this is not possible is going beyond what scripture says.
Whether the word "all" means every last person or "majority of people" is not a significant issue to me.
But you and Rick don't pay attention to nuances like this.
I've heard answers like "well then you can just sin your whole life anyway" as if people who make deathbed confessions of Jesus may not have.
Purification and proportional punishment through the lake of fire allows true justice to be done and it's clearly within biblical grounds IMO.

[Guest]

Hello Steve7150

Quote: "Bob, This is not true as i have numerous times said that what i believe is that salvation is possible after death since scripture does not preclude it"....

My friend, you are not very consistant at all. You do not even remotely understand the implications behind your statements. If you were to follow logically your premise "that salvation is possible after death", where does it lead you? What then becomes of the wicked dead who refused salvation
in Christ all their lives? Are you saying that the wicked are saved after death at some point, or will all ultimately be saved at some point, or may not be saved afterall? Are you picking petals off of pansies as you recite, "he loves the wicked, he loves them not"...? When you say something is not true, you are saying in essence that you know what is true. If you are not certain what the Scripture says regarding the final determination of the wicked dead, then say or give your opinion as such. But do not say this or that proposition is or isn't true or not by basing it upon your conjecture or upon feelings or what you merely do not like.
The best you can give on this subject is your opinion. Humility in the face
of ambiguity is certainly in order for all of us on certain biblical issues.
However, the determination of God upon the wicked dead isn't one of them.

[Guest]

that salvation is possible after death", where does it lead you? What then becomes of the wicked dead who refused salvation
in Christ all their lives? Are you saying that the wicked are saved after death at some point, or will all ultimately be saved at some point, or may not be saved


Where does it lead you? Where it leads to is to justice, where it leads to is a determination by God upon each and every sinner. If God decides a sinner has been presented with a fair opportunity to know Christ yet rejects him then God will impose whatever is the appropriate response. If the sinner never had a real opportunity to know Christ for a myriad of reasons then God will respond appropriately.
That's about it Bob, i know you and Rick like to label anyone who believes salvation after death being possible as "CU" but my position is that CU is possible but not inevitable.

[Guest]

Greetings,

Bob, This is not true as i have numerous times said that what i believe is that salvation is possible after death since scripture does not preclude it therefore to say affirmatively that this is not possible is going beyond what scripture says.

Steve,

Just because you think, feel, or imagine people can become saved after they die doesn't make it true. Truth is determined by evidence. And that evidence has to be biblical evidence for we Christians. And no universalist who posts on this forum has provided supporting evidence from the Bible that it is possible to be saved after death.

The Bible is crystal clear that salvation is gained before death; no one can miss that. Yet you say you have reasons to affirm "salvation is possible after death because the Bible doesn't preclude it." You argue that since the Bible is "silent" about salvation after death---and it surely is!---that you can, therefore, confidently affirm salvation after death is possible. But you go further even than this. You propose that this very "silence" in the Bible about universal salvation proves it's true! If I could disagree with you more, I would. Not based on my feelings, emotions, imagination, personal preferences or opinions: Just What The Bible Sez.

By your own admission you believe in things that aren't to be found in the Bible. Therefore, I propose what you believe is false. You said it yourself!

Whether the word "all" means every last person or "majority of people" is not a significant issue to me. But you and Rick don't pay attention to nuances like this.

Hi, Steve. What you been up to?

Okay.
We knew you defend universalism. Now, you've told us you aren't really concerned about "how many" will people become, as you believe, saved after they die. I don't need to contest "how many" other than to say what I've always said: Salvation, according to the Bible, is for now; no one can become a Christian after they die.

I've heard answers like "well then you can just sin your whole life anyway" as if people who make deathbed confessions of Jesus may not have.

Universalists teach it doesn't matter if anyone gets saved at any time during their lives. They don't believe the salvation the Bible teaches is needed at all.

Thanks for reading,
Rick