Universalism and the Character of God

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:43 pm

Quote:
You my friend are the dodger because you and your compatriots have your ticket to heaven and if the great majority of man never know Christ then that's less competition for the seats on the heaven train with the best view of the lake of fire.
But thank God the lake of fire won't be the torture chamber that apparently many hope for because when Jesus said to "love your enemies" that was part of the process of being sanctified into HIS IMAGE.

Again I must take exception to personal insult!

Homer, your taking exception to my remark is noted as this subject evokes a lot of emotion on both sides. So i'm sorry if i crossed the line but i like airing this out just for it's own sake.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:57 pm

You have said more than once that dead can't hear.

And I'll continue saying it till it can be demonstrated that dead people ever have or can become Christians!

Hmm, you first said the dead can't hear Rick. But now you acknowledge they can hear and they can be raised and probably do just about anything.
Except one thing of course, which is become a Christian.

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:49 pm

Hi Bob,

Jesus is both 'Lord and Christ' in title, pre-eminence, authority etc of all, but is only the Savior of His covenant people

But in 1 Tim 4:10, Paul doesn't say, "He is the Lord and Christ of all but only the Savior of those who believe". Paul says He is the Savior of all.

Jesus is Lord of all. What does that mean? I believe that means his will will ultimately be done. Scripture clearly and repeatedly states that His will is to save all mankind. "Thy will be done..."

"I came to seek and to save the lost sheep of Israel" No other group will benefit from His 'particular salvation'.

No other group than Jews?! Jesus was speaking of Jews when He said this. He was referring to His earthly ministry.

As far as I can understand, there is nothing that would even remotely suggest that Gehenna or the LOF has any redeeming typology or value attached to it.

Other than, of course, the character and intent of God as demonstrated throughout the entire Bible. Read Isaiah 1, for example.

Post by **_Rick_C** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:09 pm

Readers,
Steve likes to post that I believe stuff . . . when I don't.
He says I "said" things . . . when I didn't.
To see what my opinions are, please just read my posts (and ignore him).
I apologize not for Steve, but to you, the readers, for this inconvenience.
Thanks,
Rick

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:18 pm

Steve likes to post that I believe stuff . . . when I don't.
He says I "said" things . . . when I didn't.

Rick, that's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.

Let's try to focus on the topics. Whoever is (or will be) reading this is smart enough to judge for themselves.

Post by **_Rick_C** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:53 pm

oooooooops, sorry

FUNNY!

Whatever the topic is, I Believe:
1. Dead [that is, physically] dead people are, obviously, deaf.
2. I acknowledge I believe this.
3. Though dead and deaf, they also can get [physically] resurrected.
4. Though they can get that, being dead & deaf, they can then do two other things: inherit eternal life or not (they get it or they don't).
5. However, I doubt if they can do anything...Fly to the Moon? Who knows?
6. One thing they won't be able to do if they didn't do it before they died is become a Christian.
7. I believe numbers 1-7.
8. And acknowledge it.
9. I believe the Bible teaches numbers 1-6 as numbers 7-9 confirm.
Thanks!
Rick

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:06 pm

Whatever the topic is, I Believe: 1. Dead [that is, physically] dead people are, obviously, deaf.
2. I acknowledge I believe this.
3. Though dead and deaf, they also can get [physically] resurrected.
4. Though they can get that, being dead & deaf, they can then do two other things: inherit eternal life or not (they get it or they don't).
5. However, I doubt if they can do anything...Fly to the Moon? Who knows?
6. One thing they won't be able to do if they didn't do it before they died is become a Christian.

Just trying to keep track Rick. Now i wonder if when Lazarus was raised by Jesus if he became a believer?
Or is there a little known bible rule that says he could'nt have?
And therefore if Lazarus became a believer is he the only exception to this little known bible rule?

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:32 pm

Zeph 3:8-9
8 Therefore wait for me," declares the Lord, "for the day I will stand up to testify. I have decided to assemble the nations, to gather the kingdoms and to pour out my wrath on them-- all my fierce anger. The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger. 9 "Then will I purify the lips of the peoples, that all of them may call on the name of the Lord and serve him shoulder to shoulder.

The whole world is gathered and God's wrath is poured out. The whole world is consumed. But then they are purified to serve the Lord. Interesting, to say the least. Could it be that this same style of writing is also in the New Testament?....and the same principal apply?

Todd

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:57 pm

Thank you for quoting that fascinating passage, FOF!

I anticipate that someone is going to claim that the ones whose lips will be purified in verse 9 are Israelites, or the Israel of God, and not the nations of verse 8.

However, that won't wash. For the Israelites were a people. But the word in verse 9 is "peoples". It is plural in both Hebrew and in the Greek Septuagint.

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:26 am

Father_of_five wrote:Zeph 3:8-9
8 Therefore wait for me," declares the Lord, "for the day I will stand up to testify. I have decided to assemble the nations, to gather the kingdoms and to pour out my wrath on them-- all my fierce anger. The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger. 9 "Then will I purify the lips of the peoples, that all of them may call on the name of the Lord and serve him shoulder to shoulder.

The whole world is gathered and God's wrath is poured out. The whole world is consumed. But then they are purified to serve the Lord. Interesting, to say the least. Could it be that this same style of writing is also in the New Testament?....and the same principal apply?

Todd

Notice how this passage sounds a lot like the following in 2 Pet 3.

2 Pet 3:7-13
7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

Jesus returns for judgment and everything is burned and consumed. But then, everything is renewed in the new heavens and new earth. Could this be parallel, where all people will be purified and serve God "shoulder to shoulder"? It sounds a lot like, "Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess." The opponents of CU would say that the kneeling and bowing happens before the burning and consuming, but the passage from Zephaniah seems to say that the kneeling and bowing happen after the burning and consuming. Sounds a whole lot like Universal Reconciliation to me.

Todd