Does death end our ability to choose?

[Guest]

The greek word for "eternal" in Hebrews 6:2 which mentions "eternal judgment" is aionios.

Aionios
ahee-o'-nee-os

Definition
without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be without beginning without end, never to cease, everlasting

NAS Word Usage - Total: 68
eternal 66, eternity 1, forever 1

[Guest]

Definition
without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be without beginning without end, never to cease, everlasting


And i can truck out Youngs and Rotherham's and other sources that say it means "age abiding" or "ages" and you can quote traditionalists who will say it means eternal.
So if "eternal" punishment makes sense to you then that's what you should believe.

[Guest]

Yeah, it doesn't make much of a difference to me. If if it was up to me, I'd rather them recieve an age abiding judgment, then come to be united with me and you Steve in God's Kingdom. However, since my view of hell is indeed eternal, but not according to a Dontae's infernal nor a Mary K Baxter view, it doesn't bother me too much. I see the eternal judgment of the wicked to be the type of judgment where the wicked will be in solitary confinement very much like being in prison. There will be anguish and gnashing of teeth, which to me they will be both extremely emotionally sorry and angry. I was able to enjoy life even though my grandmother who raised me from age 5 to 13 spent some time in the penn. How much more will I be able to enjoy eternity knowing that she might be in hell when I see the glory of the Lord after the resurrection where God will personally wipe away every tear?

[Guest]

Hebrews 6:1-2

And commented:
This gives an overview of the Christian life. We see three couplets of thought. Repentance and faith deal with entering the Kingdom. Baptism and Laying on of Hands deal with being part of a community of faith where discipleship takes place for the preparation of the call that is on ones life, then is sent out to fulfill their destiny on the earth. Resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment deals with how they lived as a believer, along with the idea that their will be a coming jugment of all mankind. We see that the judgment is an eternal judgment. If Universal Reconciliation will take place at some point after the resurrection of the dead, why does the writer of Hebrews refer to the jugdment as eternal in nature (instead of lets say maybe temporal judgment)?

Universalists believe the Christian life, and everything it means, is not needed for everyone. That eventually, after the unsaved go to Hell for an unknown length time, they will come out of it and be with God forever. These people, universalists say, actually bypass having to be "saved."

Universalists also teach that an "aion" or an age doesn't mean eternal or forever. They concede that it could mean "unending" but don't equate unending with forever (which isn't logical, imo). How they would answer your question would probably be something like: "The judgment is a period of time that comes to an end (aion, or an age)." In this way they can have the unsaved dead [who they think will be resurrected and sent to Hell for some unknown time] to either:
A. come out of Hell in another age that the Bible doesn't tell us about or,
B. might reason that 'the judgment' has two dispensations or aions/ages in it:
1. a 'Hell' age and
2. and a later 'live with God' age

However, the Bible is silent about both A. and B. Though universalists believe A. and/or B. are true, the burden of proof rests on them to demonstrate that the Bible supports such a detailed eschatology [teachings about the last things]. We wouldn't be debating this stuff if it did as we all could see it!

Hebrews 9:27-28 and Hebrews 6:1-2 do not support universalism as neither spell out universalism's detailed eschatology. In other words, neither A. nor B. can be derived internally from either passage. Based on this evidence, I continue to argue universalism is false.

SE, (do you have a real name you give out? or is SE okay),

You mentioned "the gnashing of teeth" that people in Hell will have. In the Bible the gnashing of teeth is always used to describe very angry people. Today we use the expression "gritting your teeth" to describe the same thing. If you can picture an enraged person, an angry face with them "clenching their jaws at someone", that's it.

This further calls universalism into question. If, as they say, sinners will be sent into the fire of Hell to receive "correction", they will apparently be quite enraged about having to receive it! This brings up a sub-topic of free will. If the sinners in Hell will still have it, are there any reasons why believers won't have free will too? Following universalist 'logic', it would be possible for saved Christians to backslide or become unbelievers in the afterlife! Actually, it would be the logical conclusion if universalism was true...which it isn't.

Thanks,
Rick

[Guest]

Yep. You make some good points Rick. My name is Troy, and if there was a way to change my screen name to my real name, I would do it. I don't know how, if it's even possible.

You mentioned "the gnashing of teeth" that people in Hell will have. In the Bible the gnashing of teeth is always used to describe very angry people. Today we use the expression "gritting your teeth" to describe the same thing. If you can picture an enraged person, an angry face with them "clenching their jaws at someone", that's it.

Acts 7:51 "You men who are stiff-necked R386 and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did. 52 "Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become; 53 you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it." 54 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him.

[Guest]

Okay, Good to meet you Troy, though I've seen you around before.

Good example from Acts.

I'd like to see a universalist 'end times chart'. Just on what the dispensations would look like. I've never thought to try to find one but haven't seen any on the pro & con sites I've got. In my mind I've envisioned one....

Christ's Return

The Saved:
judged & rewarded
>with God forever >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The Unsaved:
judged and sent to Hell
>>one person in Hell >with God forever>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> another person <longer>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another, much longer>>>>

Saved people (Christians) have a more or less 'orthodox chart', it seems.

With the Unsaved: each person would have their 'own chart' or their own 'personal dispensation in Hell' with people coming out at different times, depending on how long it took them to not be angry at God, and so on: weird.

Anyway, Have a Good Lord's Day,
Rick

P.S. Re: new nick.
One of the admins or Steve Gregg might be able to help. Other than that, another email account, only way I know.

[Guest]

So many questions raised. It's hard to know where to begin.

I will say first of all, that the judgment of the righteous and the judgment of the unrighteous will both take place at their resurrection (whether those resurrections occur simultaneously or are separated by a millenium is irrelevant to this fact.

All are judged according to their works---- yes, their works as mortals, for at the time of their judgment, that is the only works they will have.
The blessed and holy ones who are privileged to share in the first resurrection will be forever with the Lord.

Those in the second resurrection whose names are NOT written in the Lamb's book of life will be cast into aeonion fire to be corrected there. That is their sentence as a result of the judgment. The implication in these words from Revelation seems to be that SOME of those in the second resurrection DO HAVE their names written in the Lamb's book of life. Yet they will not be counted among the righteous. What happens to them?

42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time?
43 Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing.
44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the unfaithful.
47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating.
48 But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.


Luke 12:42-48 records Jesus as describing four classes of servants:

1. The first is a faithful servant who looks after the master's household while he is away. The master will set him over all his possessions when he returns.

2. Another servant does not know his master's will but does things which deserves a beating. He will be given a light beating.

3. Yet another servant knew his master's will, but did not act according to his will. He will be given a severe beating.

4. Still another servant says, "My master delays his coming" and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk. When the master returns, he will put that servant with the unfaithful (unbelievers).

All four are servants of the master. The fourth in the list above will have to endure the same severe correction as the unfaithful.

We are reminded of the passage in Hebrews 10:26, 27 which reads:

For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.

The author says "if we..." He seems to include himself as among those who might be cast into the fire which will consume the adversaries (that is, destroy them in their original form, and purify them by fire).

I suspect that the first in the list above would go directly into life.
But the second and third? They need to receive their light or heavy beating, neither in heaven or in Gehenna. Somewhere in limbo? I have no idea. Pehaps right here on earth after the millenium.

I see no reason why those who will be in Gehenna may not be continually assessed. Call that "multiple judgments" if you wish. But Revelation 14:9,10 indicates that those who worship the beast and his image will be tested in the presence of the angels and the lamb. In my understanding, this testing will be to indicate their status --- to what extent their correction in the Lake of Fire is effective.

I know that some translate "basanizo" as "tormented" ,but etymologically, the nounal form of the word referred to a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver. The gold or silver was rubbed with the stone. No doubt that left marks. Sometimes a test for a human being can be painful, as indeed it will be in Gehenna. Nevertheless the primary meaning is "test".

The word is used in Mark 6:46, where Jesus saw his disciples rowing toward shore with a strong wind against them. "Seeing them being tested in their rowing" [literal translation], he walked on the water to meet them.
The wind tested their ability to withstand, and to continue rowing. I suppose one could (by a stretch) maintain that the wind "tormented" them. But it would be a stretch. They were tired, working hard at the oars, but hardly being tormented.

tor-ment (torment)n. 1. Great physical pain or mental anguish. 2. A source of harassment, annoyance, or pain. 3. The torture inflicted on prisoners under interrogation.

---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from American Heritage Talking Dictionary
Copyright © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

In conclusion, the judgment at Christ's coming, as well as that at the end of the millenium does indeed relate to our deeds during our mortal condition. But this does not preclude continual testing of those in Gehenna, anticipating their repentance.

As for Rick's call for "a universalist end-times char" none exists except that for believers in UR, the eschaton itself is universal reconciliation to God. It's not that individuals who believe in UR lack an eschatological system, but rather that there is not a single system peculiar to UR. Some believers in UR are historic premillenialists (such as myself); others are dispensationalists (a relatively recent subset of premillenialists). Others are post-millenialists, and yet others are a-millenialists. Some are even preterists or partial preterists with respect to Matthew 24.

[Guest]

tor-ment (torment)n. 1. Great physical pain or mental anguish. 2. A source of harassment, annoyance, or pain. 3. The torture inflicted on prisoners under interrogation.

2 Pet. 2:8
(for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds)...

[Guest]

Rick,

I regret that I don't have time to post anything of length, but I wanted to second what Paidion said about believers in CU having different viewpoints on other theological matters, such as eschatology. For example, I am a Preterist, and a nearly-Full Preterist at that.

I've noticed (and have mentioned to you before) that you have shown a tendency to mischaracterize what Christian Universalists believe. Paidion, Todd, Steve, myself and others have explained our beliefs, yet when you begin a sentence with "Universalists believe..." or "Universalists teach...", what follows is usually inaccurate. I don't know if this is because you are trying to paint us all with too broad of a brush or you are using materials in your research that refer to a some other form of Universalism or you are not hearing us or you are intentionally setting up and knocking down straw men.

If it makes you happy to do that then, by all means, go ahead but I just wanted to state (again) for the record that you do not seem to have a good handle on what the Christian Universalists in this forum believe.

Oh and, it seems that so far no one has been able to satisfactorally answer Dave's challenge.

[Guest]

My apologies for not responding sooner.
We've just recently had a new baby (Lucy Elaine, our third child, but our first girl) on 11/7 and have been busy, as you can imagine.

P.S. Dave, usually 'cross-posting' isn't done on the web (as you've taken one of my posts and made a new thread with it). "Netiquette" they call it.

Further apologies offered to Rick for my breach of Netiquette.
I didn't want to jump in on the busy thread that this quote was on and get lost in the shuffle. And Rick's statement is an assertion I've heard all my life from many Christians so it triggered a question I've had on my mind for a while.

Finally to the question at hand and the verses offered to prove otherwise -

While I find much in the Scriptures that urges people that the time for salvation is now (with which I wholeheartedly agree), I'm not aware of any Scriptures that state that one's eternal destiny is fixed at the point of death.

Can someone provide some verses?

Hebrews 9:27-28
And just as people are appointed to die once, and then to face judgment, so also, after Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many, to those who eagerly await him he will appear a second time, not to bear sin but to bring salvation.

I've heard this verse offered many times as a prooftext for this topic, yet it doesn't seem to prove what people say. It is a simple statement that says that generally, humans will die only one time, and after they die they will be judged. Note that it doesn't say anything about whether we have no further opportunity to choose Christ, perhaps as a result of corrective judgment. Instances of judgment throughout Scripture show that in many cases, the judgment is not final, but meant to bring about repentance.

Also, as Christopher pointed out already, physical death as the judgment may be what's in view here.

Luke 16:19-31

Luke 16, in it’s context (esp. v15), appears to me to be more about outwardly religious Jews (portrayed by the rich man) being unmerciful to outwardly spiritually destitute people (portrayed by Lazarus) when in reality their pride makes them more spiritually destitute in God’s eyes than the sinners they scorn. It’s not primarily about the state of the saved and the lost souls after they die IMO.

Also, even if this parable was meant to describe the after life, the only part of it to be used to assert that final destinies are fixed after death is verse 26 which references the great chasm that prevents either side from traveling back and forth. But this would only work if the judgment is eternal and non-corrective.
This parable cannot be used to prove the point either.

John 5:24
“I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life."

This statement by Jesus declares the simple truth that those who hear the Gospel and believe in God because of it have entered the family of God through faith, and have passed from death to life. There is nothing in this verse or the surrounding context that would close this offer at physical death.


To summarize, I still haven't found a verse in Scripture that closes the offer of salvation in Christ at the point of physical death. While this may be true, it also may not be true, but Scripture is silent on the question.

However, this doesn't mean that we shouldn't urge people that now is the time to turn to Jesus. He is worthy of the reward of His suffering and this world needs more people who are committed to God's ways of living so that His kingdom will come and His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Dave